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Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:48 am
by sameoldlama
Heard on radio a town in Louisiana has a petition circulating to tear down and Robert E. lee and replace it with one of the town's apparently favorite daughter ..... one Brittany Spears.

We all witnessed this during the Sandusky scandal - when you start catering to the mob (and whatever mob it is) - you shouldn't expect their demands to become more reasonable.

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:06 pm
by Nat@PSU
I don't know man, if I had to choose between this:

Robert E Lee.png

and this:


I'm going Britney Spears all the way.

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 12:14 pm
by Shore Lion
You know, I've changed my opinion on this issue a bit. (not the Robert Lee the announcer thing, that's just dumb).

Let me give you an example. I work for a city that had a bust of Roger Brooke Taney in front of City Hall because he lived here for a time, practiced law and is in fact buried here. It used to be the county courthouse but has been City Hall for a few decades now. The bust was put up in 1932. Taney of course was the Chief Justice who authored the opinion on the Dred Scott case. The decision essentially said that blacks were not equal to whites. Most scholars agree that it's the worst decision ever rendered by the USSC.

Anyway, until the last year or so my view was that it was history and therefore should not be altered. But as I listened more and read more I began to have a change of heart. Not because I think we should change history or erase it or forget about it but because of the message this particular bust was sending. Here was a bust, a memorial to man who said that all people were not equal. And it was given a place of honor outside of the most important governmental building in the city. Imagine being a black person and walking into City Hall to pay your property taxes or participate in a public hearing as an elected official (yes, we've had black elected officials) and passing a monument to a man who said you weren't equal to him. Not really sending a message of inclusion is it? Especially in a public place and outside of a building that's supposed to be "the people's house". So I get it.

The bust was removed and will be displayed at a local cemetery. In this case, near the grave of Francis Scott Key which is actually a fairly big tourist draw. Having the bust located there will probably do more to promote history and understanding of the Dred Scott case than it ever would in front of City Hall. To the City's credit, they turned down offers from private buyers who wanted it for their personal collections because they wanted it to be able to be seen by the public and continue to tell the story. Just not in a place of prominence at the center of the city's government where he is celebrated. You can be a historical figure and not be revered.

And honestly, I've never understood most of the Confederate monuments anyway. The reality is these guys were traitors, which is funny to me because most of the staunchest supporters of these monuments staying in place proclaim themselves to be patriots, yet they celebrate men who led a rebellion against the country they claim to love. Anyway, enough of this rant. Feel free to fire away at me.

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:06 pm
by Blue&White

Really well said and I agree. These monuments aren't teaching history, they are showing reverence to people who do not deserve to be revered. And, more to your point, many (obviously not all) of these monuments and statues were put up not to honor the people who's image they bare but to send messages to others, usually black people and other minorities, about their place in that society. The overwhelming majority of these monuments should be coming down and moved from the public square and into places more appropriate like a museum. I'm all for that. And, I think the notion we are erasing our culture is nonsense. What culture are we supposed to be erasing here? One of segregation and brutality. We should remember that as part of our collective American history, but we should not be treating it with any respect.

Lama - you can't deny that Nat makes a good point about Spears. I don't want to hear her sing, or even talk, but I can happily look at her all day long.

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:13 pm
by Nat@PSU
I think you hit the nail on the head as far as I view this. Removing these types of monuments isn't about changing or erasing history. It's about removing them from places of honor. It's about not allowing the monument to dictate the understanding of the person it depicts and paint him in a flattering light.

As Shore noted, at the heart of the matter is that these men rebelled against the Union we honor as the framework of our nation. They were traitors. No amount of gentlemanly behavior undoes that.

Their lives should be remembered, in a museum that provides the context and history necessary to tell their story. They shouldn't remain as monuments in places of honor.

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:18 pm
by sameoldlama
Be careful what you wish for - if this is a PC move you might not sex object Brittany Spears (that would offend at least 38 of the 42 current gender classifications) you might get shaved head, pudgy Brittany Spears - and what if the statue comes with audio - would you want to hear Oops I Did It Again 24/7?

I can only see us reaching a consensus on maybe three statues

1. A bottle of beer
2. A tasty burger
3. Walter Sobchuk

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:21 pm
by psu_dad
Then why are we messing around with B-list confederate officers? We need to tear down the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial. They were both rebellious slave-owners.

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:00 pm
by LioninVa
Thanks, Lama... now I can't get that song out of my head! I am not sure we would reach a consensus...
1) Who's buying?
2) What can I put on my burger?
3) OK. We can agree on this one!

That said, I agree with the lase few comments about the statues. I friend told me that Gettysburg Battlefield will not be taking down statues of Confederate soldiers. I am fine with this as that seems to be a perfect place to keep them, as opposed to a random street corner in a southern city.

While I can't speak for anyone other than myself, the slippery slope of 'he was a slave owner' (not singling your comment, _dad) really is unfair because we can't judge individuals from the past based on societal norms of today. Unless, of course, those norms are consistent. One area that they are consistent is in what constitutes treason, as ShoreLion (I think) mentioned. They took a risk for whatever reason they believed in, and they lost. Where else in the world are there statues/memorials of losing leaders like there are here?

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 2:03 pm
by Blue&White
They were both rebellious slave-owners.

They were only rebellious to the British. Sort of a difference.

Btw, there is, oddly enough, a statue of Washington in London. There is also one of Lincoln. Probably because they were both notable heads of state.

Lama - what kind of beer?

Re: "Duh" too

Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 3:39 pm
by sameoldlama
I forgot about the great condiment debate and as far as beer I usually simply go with a simple "cold".

It appears as Walter Sobchuk is the lone entity on which we all agree - - obviously psu_dad has promoting him forever - time to start the gofundme page for the statue