2020 Election Thread

Blue&White
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby Blue&White » Fri Apr 19, 2019 12:10 pm

Well, Biden is officially running. Yippee.

Lama - I don't know where you got the impression that Sanders doesn't believe in more "controlled capitalism". He doesn't talk about take overs of private instituations like banks and corporations. He talkes about public safety nets and having those benefiting the most from the system to help keep the whole thing moving so those at the bottom don't get left behind. You continue to ascribe a philosophy to him that he doesn't claim for his own. I get you may not agree with some of his polices, and that's fine. You're not alone. But, at least object to what he actually says.

As for him simply pandering - I don't think so. He may not succeed but I think he has every intention of raising taxes on the rich and using it to pay for Medicare for all and some of his other programs. Whether there is a congress that goes along with that is a different issue entirely.
Baseball season!!!!

sameoldlama
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby sameoldlama » Fri Apr 19, 2019 1:39 pm

Oh I believe Bernie will tax the crap out of "the rich" and corporations and make them pay "their fair share" and he will promise "free" stuff out the wazoo - but I don't think he's crazy enough to believe a socialist economy could generate the wealth he wants to confiscate to bribe voters.

He's every bit the con man you claim DT to be. The question in his head is "how can I take as much as possible from the productive without killing them to bribe the unproductive to keep me in power while pocketing a tidy sum for myself".

I think he's finally figured out the ideology he pursued for a lifetime is a complete and total fraud. He knows he's a fraud. Biden, Clinton, Pelosi all know the same wealthy people and corporations they demonize are the very same people who have lead the country to amazing prosperity over a long period of time - that's why they cozy up to these people when it comes time to fill their wallets.

The author is dead on - the old guard "socialists" and "progressives" know they need the wealth a capitalist economy generates - the class envy schtick is just voter pandering. The young socialists bought the rhetoric hook, line and sinker and don't realize that Venezuela didn't fail because of a failure of execution - it failed by design.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall

tempe
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby tempe » Sat Apr 20, 2019 3:18 pm

hmmmmm - Lama, I think you fail to consider a lot. I think a primary reality that needs to be deeply considered is how technology effects a system. How it allows for consolidated wealth like no time in modern history. Have you ever studied the effects of the industrial revolution? Do you understand the revolution happening today? Lams, your post seems jaded and archaic in thought, tone, and tenor. If a capitalist system fails to update - like any mythology that fails to evolve and update - it becomes obsolete. You just seem so limited in understanding connections and the current environment. Read unpolluted economist and those that orbit economic concerns. Make no mistake, the old system is barely valid today. How many billionaires do you need before you concur the current system is flawed? Do you need a revolution?

saw this in the paper tonight - Thought I would come back to post:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics ... story.html

Blue&White
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby Blue&White » Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:55 am

Lama

If you're wondering why people keep stopping you on the street and offering you directions to the Wizard, it's because of that ridiculous pack of strawmen you travel with.

But, let's address a few things here.

First, this notion of wealth creation. Yes, our current economic model does a great job creating wealth. I don't think I've heard anyone deny that. And, I've not heard anyone say they want to change the basic structure of economy "nationalize" our industries. Comparing the policy ideas of Sanders to Venezuela is intellectually dishonest and a pathetic strawmen. What Sanders is advocating is not influencing how wealth is created but spreading it out to everyone who makes that possible. The reality is that this country has, for the past 40 years, focused on making the rich richer and at the expense of the people who make the production possible. Yes, I know that everyone you personally know is now routinely dining on caviar and sailing on their yacht every weekend, but everyone else in the country you don't know the tax cuts did pretty much nothing for them. The overwhelming evidence is all it did was make the rich richer. Corporations bought back shares, which juiced the star market, executives gave themselves massive raises and bonuses and everyone else got to eat cake. Remember how we were all getting raises of $4,000 to $9,000? Well, according to Bloomberg, real wage increases are at around 0.8% and are below the wage growth we saw from 2015 to 2015. Source

This tax cut is doing nothing for ordinary people (outside, of course, the people you know who are now all millionaires. I don't want to forget about them). And, the rest of the country is facing daunting prospects as the cost of college continues to grow, debt loads continue to grow, and all of us are now on the hook to pay down the incredible deficit this tax cut created (and, as a side note - I never, ever again want to hear the Republicans complain about deficits or claim to be the party of "fiscal responsibility". What a crock of shit). Oh, btw, remember how Aetna Inc., AT&T, Altria Client Services, Association of American Railroads, Boeing, Brown-Forman, Capital One, Cox Enterprises, CVS Caremark, Edison Electric Institute, FedEx, Ford, General Dynamics, Home Depot, Intel, Kimberly-Clark, Liberty Media, Lockheed Martin, Macy’s, National Retail Federation, Nike, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Reynolds American, S&P Global, Southern Company, Synchrony Financial, T-Mobile, UPS, Verizon, Viacom, and Walmart all claimed they were going to hire more people once these tax cuts were signed into law? Well, everyone of them has had layoffs since that. Every single one. Go figure.

That article you posted was ridiculous. And, it ignores a lot of things. And, putting up Venezuela is an example is just stupid. Why not put up a country that actually follows the model Sanders proposes - Norway. You remember Norway, right? The country Trump wants our immigrants to come from? Turns out, they ain't interested. You know why? Because according to The Economist they have the 6th highest standard of living in the world (to our 11th). And, you know what else they have? A government run healthcare system that outranks the US in both quality of care AND cost. A government run anything that outperforms our capitalist market? THE HORROR! They are also entirely unionized and college is paid for by tax payers. Yes, they have a higher tax rate than we do in the US, but they are getting a lot of the services we pay for ala cart and pay a lot more for.

You don't want to vote for Sanders, that's fine. You don't want to trade your current tax rate for a higher rate that provides health care and college, that's fine too. You are a single guy and I get why that system doesn't benefit you at all. And, we are all allowed to focus on our own selfish self interests. I have no issue with that. But, let's base our arguments on facts and not fantasies, ok?
Baseball season!!!!

Blue&White
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby Blue&White » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:47 am

The good news is that there are now a number of polls stating that Biden would beat Trump by a wide margin. The same polls have Biden comfortably taking PA, WI and MI from Trump, which were the states that really pushed Trump over the edge in 2016.

The bad news is that all those polls also show Biden being the next President.

I predict that the day after next Election Day 2020 I am going to be very unhappy no matter what the outcome.
Baseball season!!!!

LioninVa
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby LioninVa » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:51 am

I think that’s a given for most of us. And probably will be for elections to come until the majority of us decide that these two parties really do not have our best interests in mind. Even if this is accepted, I do t see a decent short term movement to institute a viable third party or restructure the current two into something other than the Hatfields and McCoys.

Blue&White
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby Blue&White » Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:19 am

It's hard for me to believe Biden is going to make it through. The guy spends half his time pulling his foot out of his mouth. He probably sufferrs from one of the worst cases of Athletes Tongue in Washington. The only thing that may help him is that Trump has really changed the bar for what is acceptable to say and do. But, with the Democrats insisting that all their candidates stick to a strict moral code from birth until whatever the moment is, with no history of ever saying the wrong thing, it seems unlikely that Biden isn't going to cause sufficient outrage to cost him the primary. He already had that issue with the Hyde Amendment/abortion issue.

We'll see. The primaries don't start for like 7 months.
Baseball season!!!!

Nat@PSU
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby Nat@PSU » Wed Jun 12, 2019 12:53 pm

I honestly don't think Biden makes it through the Dem primary. I think his current polling numbers are reflective of people's desire to elect someone, anyone other than Donald Trump and it looks as though Biden may be able to do that. However, as the crowd starts to thin out I think we will see candidates gain ground then pass Biden.

The "electability" argument is interesting in that it appears, in many ways, to be a self-fulfilling prophecy in that to be at the top of the polls you have to be liked and to be liked you have to be at the top of the polls.

Time will tell.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Blue&White
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby Blue&White » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:29 pm

Whoemever came up with the idea of "electability" should be dragged into the public square and flogged. It's really just an attempt by media elites to tell us who is acceptble to vote for. And, I think it does real damage to the process.

As for Biden, I don't know. Under normal circumstances I'd say he has zero chance of getting elected. My concern is a lot of people will hold their nose becuase they think he's best guy to beat Trump (based on this moronic standard of "electability"). And, that's because, for the most part, he IS Trump. And people who voted for Trump but find him to crazy will be wiling to vote for Biden and not lose much of what they really want.

We will see. I will not be at all unhappy if Biden isn't the nominee.
Baseball season!!!!

psu_dad
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Re: 2020 Election Thread

Postby psu_dad » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:48 pm

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