Random Thoughts Again

Nat@PSU
Posts: 148
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Nat@PSU » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:09 pm

sameoldlama wrote:In PA (like many other places) judges are pretty much politicians too these days. Best I can summarize the PA redistricting....

R controlled legislature attempted to gerrymander in their favor
D appealed and Wolfe sent it to the PA Supreme Court (which is D controlled)
The PASC gerrymandered it in favor of Ds
Rs are vowing to take it to SCOTUS



R controlled the legislature and gerrymandered the hell out of PA. Seriously. I'm in the 6th district. Look at this monstrosity.

PA 6th.jpg


D's challenged and sent to the PA Supreme Court which ruled the map unconstitutional.

R's challenged and sent to SCOTUS which upheld the PA Supreme Court ruling.

R's issued a number of new maps, all of which were comically gerrymandered.

PA Supreme Court drew new map. Here it is:

New PA District Map.jpg


For comparison purposes, here is the old one:

Old congressional district.jpg


The only thing truly insane about this process is how the map was able to be gerrymandered to the level that it was. Absolutely bonkers.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Blue&White
Posts: 1900
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:19 pm

The ruling to redistrict went to the SCOTUS and they refused to entertain the arguments. This specific map did not and I supposed the Republicans can try to challenge, but I doubt that is going to get them anywhere. The SCOTUS already took the position once this was a state law issue, and the new map was made by the PA Supreme Court and presumably is consistent with their ruling. So, my guess is this will be the end of it.

Also, I wanted to respond to something Carl said earlier:

I suspect some if not most of the murderers "legally buying firearms" are doing so illegally by falsely filling out the form you are required to which is forwarded to I forget who to do the background check. Then we have either incompetent, lazy, overworked, outnumbered people who are required to report those who misbehave to keep them off the list to buy. Two holes so far. More I'm sure.

No offense but this is just not based on any facts. The vast number of these shootings are by people who bought guns perfectly legally. There was no failure by the FBI or the state that would have prevented him from legally buying these guns. There was no falsification of the background checks by the lunatic in Vegas that should have been caught to prevent him from buying those guns. There was no incompetent or lazy guv'ment employee in Kentucky who failed to do his or her job properly that allowed someone to illegally buy guns prior to the Kentucky school shooting a few weeks ago. Your opinion seems to be that it has to be a failure somewhere because how else can people like this get these guns? It's not a failure, though. This is a feature, not a bug. A lot of lobbying money has been spent to make sure this is the way it is. These mass shootings are not the result of falsely filling out forms, government incompetence, or people buying guns illegally. It is because people have the legal ability to buy these things, regardless of how screwed in the head they may be, because it's all perfectly legal unless you get convicted.

And, yes, I'm aware the guy in Texas who shot up the church was able to get his gun due to a mistake by the Air Force. So what? That's one instance in hundreds. That is the exception, not the rule. The problem isn't the exception. The problem is that civilians can buy military grade weapons on a lark and then go on a shooting spree.
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?

sameoldlama
Posts: 497
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:43 am

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby sameoldlama » Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:45 pm

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics ... 95ce1dcda0

Analysis of mass shootings which includes breakdown of use of legal / illegally obtained weapons. I didn't review it depth - only aspect I see that could be considered outside what we are debating are shooting in which victims were known to shooter and not more random or general in nature.

There was a recent shooting in Western PA at a car wash in which 4 people were killed - the shooter knew victims and appeared to be targeting an ex GF - I would see that as more of a domestic shootings vs shootings as the Florida case. There are also some workplace shooting included where someone targets fellow employees - again I see these as different then what we have been discussing - as similar to the domestic - the shooter had a long term relationship to victims and targeted specific people and specific incidents precipitated the shooting.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall

Carl Spackler
Posts: 357
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Carl Spackler » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:41 pm

psudelco wrote:
chas wrote:Hello

I am sorry to let you know that my dad passed away last week after his long fight with cancer. He passed unexpectedly in his sleep, his heart just gave out. Dad enjoyed the debate and information sharing on this and other sites. I am sure he will be waiting for the rest of you to continue your discussions. Gob bless.

Michael

Sorry for your loss Michael, my condolences to you and your family


I too am sending condolences on your recent loss of your father Michael. You can not replace a dad, you only get one. May you find peace and comfort through this difficult period. :(
So I got that going for me...which is nice. It's a cross between Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent and Northern California Sensimilla so you can play 36 holes on it,take it home at night and get stoned to the begesses belt

Carl Spackler
Posts: 357
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Carl Spackler » Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:52 pm

Blue&White wrote:The ruling to redistrict went to the SCOTUS and they refused to entertain the arguments. This specific map did not and I supposed the Republicans can try to challenge, but I doubt that is going to get them anywhere. The SCOTUS already took the position once this was a state law issue, and the new map was made by the PA Supreme Court and presumably is consistent with their ruling. So, my guess is this will be the end of it.

Also, I wanted to respond to something Carl said earlier:

I suspect some if not most of the murderers "legally buying firearms" are doing so illegally by falsely filling out the form you are required to which is forwarded to I forget who to do the background check. Then we have either incompetent, lazy, overworked, outnumbered people who are required to report those who misbehave to keep them off the list to buy. Two holes so far. More I'm sure.

No offense but this is just not based on any facts. The vast number of these shootings are by people who bought guns perfectly legally. There was no failure by the FBI or the state that would have prevented him from legally buying these guns. There was no falsification of the background checks by the lunatic in Vegas that should have been caught to prevent him from buying those guns. There was no incompetent or lazy guv'ment employee in Kentucky who failed to do his or her job properly that allowed someone to illegally buy guns prior to the Kentucky school shooting a few weeks ago. Your opinion seems to be that it has to be a failure somewhere because how else can people like this get these guns? It's not a failure, though. This is a feature, not a bug. A lot of lobbying money has been spent to make sure this is the way it is. These mass shootings are not the result of falsely filling out forms, government incompetence, or people buying guns illegally. It is because people have the legal ability to buy these things, regardless of how screwed in the head they may be, because it's all perfectly legal unless you get convicted.

And, yes, I'm aware the guy in Texas who shot up the church was able to get his gun due to a mistake by the Air Force. So what? That's one instance in hundreds. That is the exception, not the rule. The problem isn't the exception. The problem is that civilians can buy military grade weapons on a lark and then go on a shooting spree.


If you have ever filled out this form you realize how easy it is to misrepresent your background. Apparently there is a lot of info that doesn't make it to the back ground check site for inclusion in the check. If a guy having ill intentions fills out a form falsely and obtains a firearm, falsely, it is illegal in my mind. This doesn't make the murdered feel any better but it sure needs to be checked with a plethora of info that feeds into the background check process to help weed out problems. I just filled out a form at my pain mgt. office last week that any drug head would have lied their fannies off to obtain medical products. Only a drug test would have revealed their lies, and we all get these tests periodically to ascertain the proper use of the products provided for our condition. My laughed out loud at several questions and the PA laughed along as Mrs. Spackler asked me what all the laugher was about. Have you ever used illegal drugs? Everyone knows if you say Yes you are out the door, not to be seen again in that office, just like the firearm form. I want more serious scrutiny and more reporting for a firearm form but in the end, it will never stop a person who has ill intent, they will obtain a firearm, a bomb or whatever legally or illegally to do their worst. Laws and locks are for the honest, not the criminals who by name do not obey laws. Protect our schools & children with armed guards on all entrance doors, NOW.
So I got that going for me...which is nice. It's a cross between Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent and Northern California Sensimilla so you can play 36 holes on it,take it home at night and get stoned to the begesses belt

psu_dad
Posts: 1257
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:30 pm

Apparently the Florida State House voted down a motion today on a bill that would ban "assault rifles" and large capacity magazines. And the vote wasn't close. Not that I'm surprised.
Fire Alex Cora. (On hold pending further review)

Blue&White
Posts: 1900
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Feb 20, 2018 6:39 pm

Carl

Appreciate your comments. But, sorry, I don't buy this for 2 reasons.

First, a background check that is reliant on how you fill out form is not a check. And, I'm not aware of it being reliant on your answers for any other area. When I got a background check at work, they took my driver license number and went from there. My wife has a back ground check every couple of years for the state. They don't ask her any questions. They just fingerprint her and take her driver's license number and they do the rest. If the background check for gun purchases is such that it relies on you to provide information, then the only reasonably conclusion is that a system that can be gamed by lying on the form is a feature, not a bug. There is no reason for this to be reliant on the person who wants to buy the gun. It simply makes no sense - unless someone designed a process that can be circumvented.

Second, your comment was that you believed that "many if not most" of these shootings were by people who lied on the form and really purchased the gun illegally. But, that belief is simply not supported by the facts. If someone had lied to get a gun, that would have come out in the aftermath. When there was the massacre in the church in Texas, it took maybe 48 hours for it to be pointed out that the Air Force had dropped the ball and that contributed to him buying a gun. We do know, after the fact, when a shooter had a gun he obtained illegally. We don't have to guess or make assumptions. And, the vast majority of these mass shooting incidents the gun was purchased legally. Oh, and I'll go further and say that in the vast majority of these incidents the person had not done anything prior to pulling that trigger that would have registered as any kind of mental illness from any kind of legal perspective. That is another giant red herring in this debate.
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?

Blue&White
Posts: 1900
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Feb 20, 2018 8:17 pm

psu_dad wrote:Apparently the Florida State House voted down a motion today on a bill that would ban "assault rifles" and large capacity magazines. And the vote wasn't close. Not that I'm surprised.


Saw that. I also saw the aid to Florida state Rep. Shawn Harrison used his official government email to write a news organization about 2 Parkland students that were interviewed. His email stated that the 2 kid were not students at Parkland but instead were professional "crises actors" who go from tragedy to tragedy pretending to be victims. The aid was placed on leave by Harrison who apologized.

This raises the question of: what the actual fuck is wrong with people? How hard is it to figure out that these kids are students and to reject some moronic conspiracy theory? And, given that a shooter actually did walk into that school, kill 17 people and wound a bunch of others, why would they need to find "crises actors"? There are plenty of people who where there and impacted. If this moron had spent 30 seconds exercising his brain he could have avoided looking like a world class schmuck. I can't believe he was only placed on "leave" for this.

Lama - thanks for posting that. Informative, but scary. I could quibble with some of your characterizations (I wouldn't treat work place shootings differently, but agree the domestic shootings a different animal, not that it matters to the victim) but I guess it doesn't matter. But, that is really frightening. I guess this is all really a matter of luck.

EDIT: Harrison had him placed on leave until he could get him fired. Seemed the House Speaker needed to do that. He contacted the Speaker and it was "adios muchacho" for the aid.
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?

Carl Spackler
Posts: 357
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Carl Spackler » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:11 am

Blue&White wrote:Carl

Appreciate your comments. But, sorry, I don't buy this for 2 reasons.

First, a background check that is reliant on how you fill out form is not a check. And, I'm not aware of it being reliant on your answers for any other area. When I got a background check at work, they took my driver license number and went from there. My wife has a back ground check every couple of years for the state. They don't ask her any questions. They just fingerprint her and take her driver's license number and they do the rest. If the background check for gun purchases is such that it relies on you to provide information, then the only reasonably conclusion is that a system that can be gamed by lying on the form is a feature, not a bug. There is no reason for this to be reliant on the person who wants to buy the gun. It simply makes no sense - unless someone designed a process that can be circumvented.

Second, your comment was that you believed that "many if not most" of these shootings were by people who lied on the form and really purchased the gun illegally. But, that belief is simply not supported by the facts. If someone had lied to get a gun, that would have come out in the aftermath. When there was the massacre in the church in Texas, it took maybe 48 hours for it to be pointed out that the Air Force had dropped the ball and that contributed to him buying a gun. We do know, after the fact, when a shooter had a gun he obtained illegally. We don't have to guess or make assumptions. And, the vast majority of these mass shooting incidents the gun was purchased legally. Oh, and I'll go further and say that in the vast majority of these incidents the person had not done anything prior to pulling that trigger that would have registered as any kind of mental illness from any kind of legal perspective. That is another giant red herring in this debate.


No and No.

Your background checks for work are not the same thing at all.

I did not say most were reliant on faking info in the form submitted to a gun shop to be submitted for the background check. How many firearm background checks and forms have you filled out in your experience? I suspect zero but can't say that for certain. Until you do how can you make an informed judgment on the process? I providing info based on filling out the form that you must submit to the gun shop so then can then do the background check. I doubt many on this board have completed this process. Until you do you are relying on past experience on job checks, I've done them as well, there was no form I filled out for a job check to my memory. Nothing to lie about, only my resume.

I know there are numerous opinions on this subject but few from an informed positions of filing the paperwork for a gun shop owner to undergo a firearms back ground check. Until you have done it you base your opinions on news reports, misguided and misinformed quite often, etc. I still read that some think an Armalite Rifle Model 15 is an assault rifle. It doesn't fulfill the requirements of an assault rifle. It can't be operated in fully automatic fire, it doesn't have a bayonet lug, a grenade launcher, etc. all of which are parts of an assault rifle. It's painted black and that makes all the difference, and the media spouts it day and night, I know. It may not make any difference to you but I could put a brown wood stock on and AR and make it appear to be like a hunting rifle and operate exactly the same yet not look so menacing. As long as any rifle can operate in a semi-auto mode the appearance does not make a difference. I won't waste any more time on it as minds have been made up already, why bother with facts?

I'm sure we will get some knee jerk new law's that will not stop anyone from murdering people when their evil minds decide to do so. There is no law to stop a demonic like nut from killing innocent people, no law will stop them, only equal and greater force in opposition will stop them, guard our schools. Until we protect our children from murderers all this hot air is positioning is futile. Laws are not protection, armed guard are. I won't say 100% protection, that is impossible but a heck of a lot better than what we have currently. Gun free zones sure have worked well haven't they? They tell a murderer they have no opposition and can go ahead with their carnage.

"And, the vast majority of these mass shooting incidents the gun was purchased legally. Oh, and I'll go further and say that in the vast majority of these incidents the person had not done anything prior to pulling that trigger that would have registered as any kind of mental illness from any kind of legal perspective. That is another giant red herring in this debate" I agree, let us guard our schools from these people, can we agree?
So I got that going for me...which is nice. It's a cross between Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent and Northern California Sensimilla so you can play 36 holes on it,take it home at night and get stoned to the begesses belt

Blue&White
Posts: 1900
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:08 am

Like I said, if the background check for a gun is not as simple as my wife's state background check for work and can be manipulated by a form, then people getting through who shouldn't is a feature and not a bug. There is no reason to overly complicate the process unless you want it overly complicated so it fails.

As for protecting our schools, how about our malls, our movie theaters, our restaurants, our streets, our churches, our music festivals, and our society. These weapons are a threat to our safety and well being and your right to have them should never outweigh my right to be safe from them.
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?