Random Thoughts Again

Blue&White
Posts: 450
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:50 am

It looks like the Air Force really blew this. But, the notion that he would have just automatically bought a gun anyway is not based on facts. Perhaps he could have, but that's not a given.

Again, no other western democracy has nearly the number of these shootings that we do. None of them have the gun death rates that we do. The idea that we would have roving bands of armed criminals if we put more restrictions on gun sales is simply bullshit. We don't see that anywhere else, so why would we see it here. Would it eliminate all gun violence? I doubt it. Would it greatly reduce it? Based on the experience of every other country on the globe who has limited guns sales and ownership, I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue it would not. And, a lot of these "illegal" guns start out as legal guns. It's not like they are being shipped into the US.

Btw, I love how "extreme vetting" wouldn't have stopped this guy because no one would have thought to ask the Air Force, but it absolutely would have stopped a guy who came to the US 5 years ago and was radicalized once he got here. Give me a break. :roll:

psu_dad
Posts: 217
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:24 am

But as a country, we generally don't want limited gun ownership. Yes, I've seen polls that suggest people favor more restrictions on "assault weapons", but most people don't even know what that means. What the media calls an "assault weapon" is just a garden-variety semi-automatic rifle made to look more sinister by its cosmetic appearance. And I've seen polls that suggest people favor limitations on magazine sizes. But I don't think Americans generally favor confiscating people's guns.

So what other countries do is irrelevant.

Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:51 am

The impact of gun laws in other countries is extremely relevant to the "it will never stop it!" argument.

As for what Americans want, there are certainly Americans who want nothing done but I think you're incorrect about what the majority want. I agree most people don't want all guns confiscated and all sales banned, but I think people want a lot more than just restrictions on "assault" weapons (however it may be defined).

psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:04 am

The impact of gun laws in other countries is extremely relevant to the "it will never stop it!" argument.

It's only relevant if we're willing to take the extreme measures they've taken ... and I don't think we are.

Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:03 am

But, that's a circular argument. Part of what drives the "do nothing" view is the argument that "something" won't have any impact. The evidence from Europe and Australia is that "something" can have an impact (obviously depending on what that "something" is).

The NRA and the gun lobby in general represent a very powerful interest in DC but I don't think they reflect what the majority of Americans want done on this issue. And polls repeatedly show that.

Carl Spackler
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Carl Spackler » Tue Nov 07, 2017 11:41 am

I don't think anyone wants to do nothing or seemingly accept the current status as unsolvable.

I agree that more stringent background checks should be made to weed out the recent perp and those like him. I also agree that mechanisms allowing a semi auto to act like a fully automatic fire weapon should be controlled. It defeats the purpose of banning of automatic weapons with technology and that law has been in place for close to 80 years now. I would love to have a mechanism to make my AR 15 automatic fire like for home defense but would be willing to pass on it to keep the Las Vegas type perp from his murder spree.

In the end the problem is not with the choice of murder weapon but the mind and heart of the people who in any manner consider indiscriminatingly murdering many fellow citizens. If they desire to do so they will find a means to murder even to the point of poison or other means. Mass murder has been going on for generations but in todays world of instant news it becomes more vivid, in your face. In the days when only newspapers and local ones at that were the only source of news a mass murder didn't spread across the nation in seconds but months.

It is unacceptable but the only recourse I can see is armed citizens at the ready for crimes like this because the police will never be available to stop it. We now more than ever carry a personal responsibility to protect ourselves and our families from incidents like this. I know I will make the attempt if ever in the position. Everyone has a choice to arm themselves or depend on local police to protect them. My local police are nearly 30 min away, far to late to have an impact other than to phone the coroner.

“Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Ben Franklin

I don't really think it is deserved or not but it is a matter of practicality, defend yourself or suffer the consequences. Disarming the public will guarantee the criminal element free reign that the gun free zones now offer. Armed gangs are not the issue other than drug gangs which is true, look at Chicago where they stack the bodies weekly. Perps like Sunday's murderer will illegally obtain a weapon easily and they use it against an unarmed, undefended congregation of innocent people since they are easy marks.

psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Tue Nov 07, 2017 12:14 pm

But, that's a circular argument. Part of what drives the "do nothing" view is the argument that "something" won't have any impact.

I suspect there are SEVERAL aspects to the "do nothing" view.

(1) I suspect some people genuinely don't think it will have much impact, at least not the fringe measures being proposed. You want to outlaw 30-round clips? So what. That leaves more room in the perp's pocket for more 10-round clips. Takes two seconds to load a clip.
(2) I suspect some people want no part of the more extreme measures that may have an impact.
(3) I suspect some people fear letting the "camels' nose in the tent" by doing anything.

You can talk impact all you want, but the people who own guns simply don't want to give up their current rights to own guns. According to the DOT, 10,000+ people die every year in alcohol-impaired driving crashes. We're not outlawing booze, either. People want it.

Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:00 pm

psu_dad wrote:You can talk impact all you want, but the people who own guns simply don't want to give up their current rights to own guns. According to the DOT, 10,000+ people die every year in alcohol-impaired driving crashes. We're not outlawing booze, either. People want it.


I agree with your first point, but polls showed that even gun owners favored things like restricting gun ownership from people on the no-fly list and people with certain known mental health issues (meaning there had been some kind of adjudication or public record of it) and we couldn't even get that. The ban on bump-stocks seemed to have overwhelming support and that is now looking like it won't happen. That's not because a vast majority of Americans don't think it's a good idea. It's happening because a very powerful lobbying group who give a ton of money to politicians don't want it.

psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Tue Nov 07, 2017 1:43 pm

The NRA doesn't have any influence here. And we just banned bump stocks.

I suspect the influence of the NRA is over-stated. I find it hard to believe that they have influence in states where most people disagree with their hard line approach. The NRA could give a Congressman from MA a bazillion-kajillion dollars and as soon as that got out, they would be an ex-Congressman.

Why doesn't that happen elsewhere?

Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:41 pm

I think you're kidding yourself if you believe lobbying groups spend all this money on politicians and aren't getting something for their money. There are numerous studies that show policy makers generally don't vote the way their voting constituents want but the way the donation class wants. And, in this instance I absolutely believe correlation implies causation. Mass may have banned bump-stocks but how much money does the NRA spend in MA? But, in general, I think you are flat out wrong about the influence money has on how policy is formed. The overwhelming evidence is that it has tremendous influence. And, the biggest proof of that is that there are lobbying firms and they spend a ton of money on politicians. If it didn't work, they wouldn't keep doing it. The NRA, the Chamber of Commerce, the whatever-special-interest you can think of are not run by stupid people. They would not be plowing money into politicians coffers if it didn't have the desire impact.