Random Thoughts Again

Crowbar
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Crowbar » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:29 am

LioninVa wrote:
Blue&White wrote: Until people love their children more than they love their guns, this isn't going to change.


This is, quite simply, the single best quote I have read on this issue in a long time!


Agreed. Excellent quote!
41-33.

Crowbar
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Crowbar » Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:55 am

Blue&White wrote:Thanks, but I defer to the wisdom of The Lorax for the best quote:

Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. It's not.

We are all too complacent about issues that concern us. I've been very impressed by the kids who were in that school. They are determined that their friends and teachers will not have died in vain. We'll see what gets accomplished but they are trying to have an impact. They need help, though. They need the rest of us to get up and do something, starting with casting votes against incumbents and candidates who are fighting to keep the status quo.


I am glad they are in near uprising mode. Unfortunately the "adults" in Congress who are supposed to set up laws to protect them have failed and failed miserably. I hope their efforts are successful.
41-33.

PittGradPSUMad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby PittGradPSUMad » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:00 am

Once again, folks, we seem to be oblivious to the real solution for ending school shootings....either that or you're just not paying attention.

"I know this is going to cause all kinds of angst: The solution is we need concealed carry in these schools," Limbaugh told Fox News Sunday.

There, all fixed. What could go wrong?
Yeah, well, that's like your opinion, man.

sameoldlama
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby sameoldlama » Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:50 am

The question at hand is - how do you reasonably balance the rights of law abiding people who wish to own firearms while reasonably protecting the rights of society at large.
I get the impression most people on this board don't own a firearm and likely are not firearm enthusiasts who own semi or automatic weapons. It's kind of easy for us to call for far reaching restrictions on gun ownership because we would theoretically only stand to benefit and would see no loss of freedom.

So allow me to look at an analogous situation. Drinking. Drunk driving clearly has a serious social cause comprised of drunk driving accidents and violence (fights, sexual assaults) that occurs when someone abuses alcohol. A clearly legal substance everyone on this board manages to use - at least apparently - responsibly.
When I was 16 I went to Spencer's Gift, bought a blank ID card (issued by the "County Commissioner") and typed myself up a fake ID which I used to get in bars. Because I couldn't wait until I was 18. I lived in a mid size town / city. If a cop caught you drinking and driving he likely either called your parents to come get you (and your parents whupped your ass), drove you home and turned you over to your parents (who whupped your ass) or made you walk home (ensuring you had to get up before your parents to get the car back home before they woke up and saw it gone and whupped your ass).
As society evolved this state of things was deemed an unacceptable way of dealing with drinking and driving. Now you have a scanner to verify legal age, if a cops pulls you over and you're drunk you are not going to be let loose and we even allow people to be stopped and checked even if they have not committed a driving infraction to draw suspicion. Law abiding citizens changed their behavior. They use designated drivers, drink less and use cabs / uber. But you still have issue related to alcohol because a certain number of people will abuse the freedom to consume alcohol no matter what.

Should we be calling for more restrictions on alcohol use? Should be close bars? Ban hard alcohol and limit it to wine and light beer? If someone has a Facebook page with multiple pics of them drunk at events should authorities pay them a visit? Most of us would take issue with these type of solutions but a person who doesn't drink might - same - no skin of my ass, go ahead.

A second critical point is - whatever action better work. If you rush to initiate legislation that reduces people's rights and freedoms you better get the intended beneficial effect. If you blow out, with great fanfare and photo ops of politicians next to kids at a school and the and the problem keeps occurring you lose credibility and reduce the likelihood of people accepting future efforts to address the issue.

The difficult aspect of this issues isn't "doing something" - it's doing something that will effectively address the problem while reasonably balancing the rights of law abiding citizens - and I don't think anyone knows what that is in the case of mass shootings at this point in time.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall

psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:36 am

Alcohol, particularly involving minors is a very serious problem. According to the CDC, excessive drinking is responsible for more than 4,300 deaths among underage youth each year. And according to a survey they commissioned, 20% of HS students admitted to riding with a driver who had been drinking alcohol within the last 30 days. But these children don't die 17 a time, so it doesn't garner national headlines.

School shootings are horrific, but they're below the "struck by lightening" category statistically (an average of less than 8 deaths a year since Columbine 19 years ago). I was infinitely more worried about alcohol when my sons were teenagers. And it doesn't seem to be getting better.
Fire Alex Cora. (On hold pending further review)

LioninVa
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby LioninVa » Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:44 am

I appreciate your thoughts, Lama. I wish I had a foolproof answer to fix this. I do not own a gun, but carried a 9mm daily and shotgun and M-16 from time to time while in the service. I think Nat made a comment regarding common sense restrictions on the 1st Amendment but when a parallel is drawn to the 2nd there is strong pushback to limiting a constitutional right. It is my opinion that there is no reason for a regular citizen to need to own an assault type weapon. But I also realize legislation to change that would be dead on arrival.

Your drunk driving analogy is good, but those changes didn’t happen overnight. It is possible that the subtle changes weren’t as noticeable as a sweeping change, like when the legal age changed from 18 to 21. Do we think this evolution is a bad thing? I got carded the other night ordering a beer at dinner and I am twice the legal age.

Carl Spackler
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Carl Spackler » Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:48 pm

Blue&White wrote:The ballot box is our best weapon indeed. Congress can turn over every 2 years. Gerrymandering makes real change in Congress extremely difficult. So, it starts with your local elections. Who is your state assemblyman? Who is your state senator? Those are the elections I am going to start paying more attention to.


That is correct. Ohio has an amendment question on the May ballot about a bipartisan effort to change the district alignment from a political format to a citizen format, what ever that means. I only heard about his yesterday in a comment from the initiative proposer. Almost any change would be a positive one if it eliminated the political one. How that is done is the big question and until I see the actual amendment I can't comment further. I'm sure I will soon and if not I'll see in on the ballot for the primary which I will again request as the local school district is again trying to get all that "free state money" for a new school, schools. That haven't yet told me how many pizza'a a month it will cost me but last time the average was only one pizza (would have cost us four or more a month). So I'll be voting and will see the amendment, if it doesn't have too much legalese as to disguise its true motive. I'm sure there will be plenty of commercials promoting one side and the other to provide us all the pseudo info necessary to make an uninformed decision. Therefore I will have to dig deep to ascertain the true motives, agendas and actual, factual info that is true.
So I got that going for me...which is nice. It's a cross between Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent and Northern California Sensimilla so you can play 36 holes on it,take it home at night and get stoned to the begesses belt

sameoldlama
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby sameoldlama » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:25 pm

Because I do go to bars and drink - yes I've paid attention to the changes.

I can see the logic of the change from 18 to 21 to allow people go gain some maturity but we also let people vote at 18 or serve in the military. I do see a conflict - you can go to war but not legally have a beer?
I didn't really agree with change from 0.10 to 0.08 - I don't know that you are really catching the at risk drivers who tend to be power drinkers - but it's a revenue generator for sure.
I agree with improved ID checking - makes complete sense.
I don't agree with checkpoints as I feel you should only be pulled over if you have been observed violating a motor vehicle law - I get checkpoints act as deterrents and are more efficient than roving patrols but you aren't neutralizing the risk at it's inception but rather after it has become a risk. If we want to go to this length I would rather see breath interlocks placed on vehicle ignitions.

I will say the above changes caused me to modify my behavior - to drinking less (including drinking light beer and not doing shots) and to using cabs and uber. I'd be curious to see if DUI arrests / accidents have decreased since ride sharing became available. Ten years ago a cab wasn't an option in parts of town I live in - now with uber you always have an option. When I get together with my old college buddies and we know we are going to drink more than the limit we uber to the bar and uber home. Though I still avoid shots - too old.
Although I don't agree with all the changes I wouldn't say my freedom to enjoy a cold one has been unreasonably infringed upon and I do believe those changes reduce drunk driving incidents.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall

Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:38 pm

sameoldlama wrote:The difficult aspect of this issues isn't "doing something" - it's doing something that will effectively address the problem while reasonably balancing the rights of law abiding citizens - and I don't think anyone knows what that is in the case of mass shootings at this point in time.


There is no easy answer to the question of what to do. There is no answer that is going to satisfy everyone, and there probably isn't an answer that is going to really satisfy anyone. No matter what they do, it's going to be too much or too little and I doubt there will be anyone who feels the solution is "right". There is also probably no solution that is going to reduce the number of gun homicides to zero. Even in countries that don't have civilian owned weapons like we do here there are gun crimes. France saw a few terrorist attacks where they utilized guns that are not legal in France (although their number of gun deaths still is a very small percentage of what we have here). There is no law or regulation that is going to completely eliminate this as a problem.

I have no idea what we should do exactly. I am all for banning military grade weapons from civilian use, but I recognize that is not going to completely solve the problem. It should, however, make a dent. If all these lunatics were limited to a hunting rifle or a 6 shooter they had to manually reload after 6 shot, I'm pretty sure that would reduce the carnage. It would have to. It doesn't reduce it to zero, but it makes a difference. Probably a big 1. There is no way that loon in Vegas shoots over 500 people and kills 59 with hunting rifles and some 6 shooters. Having to switch guns, reload, etc. would give people more time to get away. The number of victims probably still isn't zero but there is no way it's triple digits like that.

Like I said earlier, I would be happy if step 1 was to let the CDC, or someone else, do proper research on the subject and see what the commonalities are and come up with some actual facts. But, I'd also be beyond happy if gun ownership was limited to hunting rifles and 6 shooters, so I may not be the best person to judge by.

As for the drunk driving analogy, while it is true we have not stopped it, it is equally true that our elected officials have not shied away from it. The penalties for getting caught impaired behind the wheel have progressively gotten more severe. The threshold for being legally impaired has gotten lower. And, the people who can be held accountable thanks to host liability laws makes it all our problem. Someone goes to your house, has a few drinks, gets into a car and then has an accident, that may not be your house anymore. Everyone has to think twice. Bartenders, restaurants, homeowners, people who throw you a beer at a tailgate - we are all now taking on some risk and potential liability. And, it's had an impact. Since 1982, when organizations like MADD kicked off and states started to push laws with harsher penalties, the number of drunk driving fatalities has decreased by 51%. Source

With guns, it has been the complete opposite. The steady flow of legislation has been to make everyone increasingly less responsible for these actions. Is it any wonder that the numbers are increasing?
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?

sameoldlama
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby sameoldlama » Mon Feb 19, 2018 3:12 pm

If you want to pass laws that prevent a guy with a history like this from getting a gun I'll sign on

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/16/us/flori ... index.html

As I posted earlier if you want to require gun owners carry liability insurance that escalates with the purchase of multiple guns and higher firepower guns to make amassing an arsenal economically punitive - I'll sign on

If you want to give authorities greater ability to go rattle the cage of someone who makes threats of violence on social media including making them temporarily surrendering their guns until the person is vetted - I'll sign on.

You want to expand the list of crimes beyond making threats / domestics that would cause you to lose your right to possess firearms to include punching horses after your team wins a football game - I'll sign on.

People with demonstrated mental and behavior issues, people who amass large numbers of guns and people openly threatening violence are screaming "take my guns from me".
It's like the idiot who has a few drinks and goes flying down the road blaring their stereo, speeding, running lights - they are screaming "pull me over".
These people scream - I'm the asshole who can't responsibly enjoy the rights our society affords without messing it up for everyone else. Accommodate the people who are begging for attention from authorities.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall