Random Thoughts Again

Nat@PSU
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Nat@PSU » Wed Feb 21, 2018 7:22 am

Carl Spackler wrote:
I'm sure we will get some knee jerk new law's that will not stop anyone from murdering people when their evil minds decide to do so. There is no law to stop a demonic like nut from killing innocent people, no law will stop them, only equal and greater force in opposition will stop them, guard our schools. Until we protect our children from murderers all this hot air is positioning is futile. Laws are not protection, armed guard are. I won't say 100% protection, that is impossible but a heck of a lot better than what we have currently. Gun free zones sure have worked well haven't they? They tell a murderer they have no opposition and can go ahead with their carnage.

"And, the vast majority of these mass shooting incidents the gun was purchased legally. Oh, and I'll go further and say that in the vast majority of these incidents the person had not done anything prior to pulling that trigger that would have registered as any kind of mental illness from any kind of legal perspective. That is another giant red herring in this debate" I agree, let us guard our schools from these people, can we agree?


Stoneman Douglass had an armed guard at the entrance. 17 students were mowed down by 1 lunatic carrying a rifle with a high capacity magazine that has no practical use other than killing people. Arguing over identifying it as an "assault rifle" is silly semantics. This is one of the most ridiculous "arguments" I've ever seen.

Our schools are guarded. There is an armed SRO walking the halls of my school at this moment. One man. Should we have 10 guards? 50? My school has 1800 students. What's the right number? At what point do we step back and say that if in order for our students to be safe, the entrances of their schools need to look like a guard post at a military base, then maybe we've got a problem on our hands?

Every aspect of this tragedy has been engineered by years of lobbying by the gun lobby. Tougher background checks? Nope, can't happen. Restrict access to firearms based on disqualifying behavior? Nope, infringement on my rights. As noted by Blue&White, this is a feature, not a bug.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:01 am

Then why does the gun lobby have no influence in MA? Why is the AR-15 illegal here? Why were bump stocks made illegal here 5 minutes after the Las Vegas shooting?

There are states where a small percentage of the population owns a gun. There are states where (literally) half the population owns a gun. Where the latter occurs, it's because people want guns, not because of the gun lobby. The gun lobby efforts may facilitate the acquisition of guns, but people don't buy guns because it's easy. They buy a gun because they want a gun.
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LioninVa
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby LioninVa » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:09 am

I think it's safe to assume that MA is much bluer than red, politically and that is why there is far less NRA influence there.

I suppose your point is valid, that people buy them because they want them. But I knew plenty of fine young men who became gun enthusiasts by nature of political affiliation and belief. I know many who oppose them mainly because of political affiliation and belief. I am not suggesting this is the only factor, but it is a factor. I am more of an oddity in this sense; I do not want a gun but know how to use them and have no problem with someone who does want to own them, provided they pass background checks. But, this is also something that is full of loopholes and not enforced consistently across the board.

http://www.businessinsider.com/this-13-year-old-couldnt-buy-cigarettes-but-he-could-buy-a-gun-2016-6

Check out the link above, if it works. Real Sports HBO has a video of a 13 year old kid who live not far from me. Dirty magazines, scratch off tickets and other vices are more difficult to get than a rifle...

Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:26 am

Lion - both the shooter in Florida and the shooter in Vegas qualified to buy a gun with a background check. The overwhelming majority of these mass shooters are able to pass a background check and buy their weapons legally. The kid who murdered all those students in Virginia Tech? No problem passing a background check.

The problem isn't background checks. The problem is the availability of military grade weapons to a civilian population who doesn't need them.

dad - the gun industry, the insurance industry, the banking industry, the pharmaceutical industry, the oil industry, etc., all spend hundreds of millions of dollars on lobbying and donating to politicians. Are you suggesting all that money is spent with no return on their investment? I'm pretty sure that is not the case. Very often lobbying firms get to write the legislation they want passed and elected officials that have taken money from them are more than happy to push that legislation through the process. Gun legislation is one of many examples.

As for your MA example, who knows. I suppose that is one example where there is enough critical mass in the other direction where it doesn't swing things. But, after Sandy Hook poll numbers showed that an overwhelming number of people in the US wanted changes like increased background checks to screen for mental health issues and other things - and none of that happened. There are continually examples where large numbers of the population want something and the vote and legislation goes the other way - usually the way of some interest that has a lot of money to spend on the issue. That is not just happenstance. And, thanks to the wonders of things like extreme gerrymandering elected officials who buck what their constituents say they want don't easily get thrown out of office.

I think some of that is going to change, though. Voting districts in NC and PA have been struck down and new lines have been drawn. And, you can claim the PA lines are partisan all you want but looking at that map it seems pretty clear to me that is based on lines other than political affiliation of voters. Things will change because that is what things do. The students in Florida are proving to be very articulate and well spoken. That is probably why they are being subject to all kinds of nonsense conspiracy theories. They didn't have an impact on that vote yesterday, but that is one vote. Elections are coming. Change may follow.
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psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:49 am

This is going to disappear like a fart in the wind in a few weeks.
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psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:08 am

But, after Sandy Hook poll numbers showed that an overwhelming number of people in the US wanted changes like increased background checks to screen for mental health issues and other things and none of that happened.

How is that possible without violating the HIPAA laws? I don't believe medical care providers share this information with the FBI's National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) used for gun purchases. I'm not currently seeking help for a mental health issue (no wisecracks, TYVM) but I presumed that if I did, that was between me and my medical care providers.
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LioninVa
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby LioninVa » Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:41 am

Blue&White wrote:
The problem isn't background checks. The problem is the availability of military grade weapons to a civilian population who doesn't need them.



I understand that, and more or less agree. My gripe with background checks are the loopholes that exist at gun shows and second hand sales, but maybe that is a different point. I would much rather see a ban on assault type weapons rather than increased checks, but congress doesn't seem capable of compromise.

_dad, I don't know how it can be done with HIPPA laws as they are, but there has to be a way. The information doesn't have to be released to the seller as to why someone id denied a purchase, just that they are.

psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:04 am

The information doesn't have to be released to the seller as to why someone id denied a purchase, just that they are.

No, but it would have to be released by a health care provider to whatever government agency does the background check.
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Blue&White
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby Blue&White » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:12 am

psu_dad wrote:This is going to disappear like a fart in the wind in a few weeks.


It's too bad you don't have a time machine. You could travel backwards in time and stop people from wasting their efforts. The colonists who were looking to succeed from the Crown, the abolitionists pushing anti-slavery candidates in the 1850s, the suffragists at the turn of the last century, and the civil rights groups looking to over throw Jim Crowe and other racists legislation could all be told they should give up because these things don't change. Imagine meeting Dr. Martin Luther King after he gave the "I have a dream" speech and explaining to him that it's not physics, it's politics, and the feelings he generated are going to just disappear like a fart in the wind and he should just focus on things he can control. What a favor you would do all these people.

Things change if enough people get involved to do something about it. Are we at that point yet? Don't know. Remains to be seen. It may be that nothing happens and it all gets forgotten, and then come November you see a sweeping change in national and local elections. Maybe that happens. Maybe it doesn't. But, sitting on the couch and complaining about it hasn't helped so maybe it's time to try something new, like getting involved.

As for your HIPPA question, that's a big part of the reason all this talk about "mental health" is bullshit. It's one thing if you are committed for some kind of mental health issue. That may show up in a background check. But because you are seeking treatment? Unless the person treating you feels you pose some kind of immediate threat of harm to yourself and others, that is all very privilege information. No one is going to know. That's why I say a lot of these things getting brought up are bullshit.

The problem isn't lying on the form for the background check. The problem isn't that the FBI didn't follow up on a tip. Or that we aren't tracking people with mental health issues. Or that we don't have an armed guard at the school (as Nat pointed out, this school did have an armed guard). The problem is any angry person can pick up a military grade weapon, maybe add a bump stock (which Trump is now FINALY trying to ban) and kill a bunch of innocent people - and no one ever does any damn thing about it. That's the problem.
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psu_dad
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Re: Random Thoughts Again

Postby psu_dad » Wed Feb 21, 2018 11:19 am

How do you know I don't have a time machine?
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