These are a few more of my favorite peeves

psu_dad
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby psu_dad » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:21 pm

While we're on the subject, there were 168 episodes of The Rifleman made and I swear Lucas McCain shot someone in every single episode. And nary an indictment. He was the All-time Heavyweight Champion of Stand Your Ground.
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Blue&White
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby Blue&White » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:46 pm

tempe wrote:well when you got the sheriff saying no big deal and a law that was tested before - and race.

Just seems wrong someone can go looking for a fight - start a fight - and when losing, pull out a gun and kill. Personally, someone pulled a gun one me - I would quickly back off.

Even in the wild west days - you did not shoot an unarmed man. Checkout Gunsmoke radio or TV version.

Dude should be in jail.


Grower's post explains why this all make sense. See, despite being unarmed, he was within lunge range and, therefore ,could have punched the guy and turned him into a potato. See, it all makes sense and the shooting is perfectly justified once you factor in the potato factor.

:roll:
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psu_dad
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby psu_dad » Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:58 pm

This entire episode of Two Assholes Colliding has played out before and will play out again ... and again ... and again. It has a bizarre Captain Renault feel to it.

"I am shocked ... SHOCKED ... that two assholes collided and it didn't end well."

---------------------------------

PS - There have been something like 100 SYG cases in Florida since the law was passed. The vast majority don't become national stories because the vast majority involve black-on-black or white-on-white shootings. No one marches in the street for those.
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Carl Spackler
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby Carl Spackler » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:01 pm

tempe wrote:well when you got the sheriff saying no big deal and a law that was tested before - and race.

Just seems wrong someone can go looking for a fight - start a fight - and when losing, pull out a gun and kill. Personally, someone pulled a gun one me - I would quickly back off.

Even in the wild west days - you did not shoot an unarmed man. Checkout Gunsmoke radio or TV version.

Dude should be in jail.


He likely will be eventually, maybe not but if you shoot someone most anywhere else you will go to jail and you had better keep your mouth shut until you have a lawyer.

We have heard what the media wants us to hear so far. Maybe someday we will learn what actually happened. Too many give credence to the drive-by sound bites and judge it with limited and jaded information before any due process has occurred. How quickly the Sandusky debacle is forgotten when hearing other situations and events. Not aimed at you tempe but the public in general. Penn State fans in particular who cried for due process yet often media judge others quickly on sketchy and slanted media driven broadcasts w/o due process being given time to work through the situation. Add in inflammatory and controversial subject matter and we have more perfect storms brewing.
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Blue&White
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby Blue&White » Sat Jul 28, 2018 2:49 pm

PS - There have been something like 100 SYG cases in Florida since the law was passed. The vast majority don't become national stories because the vast majority involve black-on-black or white-on-white shootings. No one marches in the street for those.

Just out of curiosity, how many of those incidents involved a shooter who had a known history of having confronted people, presumably while armed, over petty things and who is seen on video starting the incident, and then shooting an unarmed man who is backing away from him and clearly not brandishing a weapon and then has the local sheriff misstate the relevant law while giving an excuse for not even arresting the guy? Because - and I'm just spit-balling here - I think that maybe, perhaps, that kind of makes this case pretty egregious on its own regardless of the race of the two individuals and is sufficient for reasonable people to stop and say "no, that can't be right".

Carl - yep, it's all the medias fault and if only there was a way, just some way, to have an idea of what the truth is. I mean, other than the video that shows the entire incident.
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psu_dad
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby psu_dad » Sat Jul 28, 2018 4:41 pm

I think that maybe, perhaps, that kind of makes this case pretty egregious on its own regardless of the race of the two individuals and is sufficient for reasonable people to stop and say "no, that can't be right".

If you genuinely believe this would have become a national story if both of the parties involved were African-American, then clearly we are residents of different planets. On my planet, nothing is of less interest to the national media than "black-on-black" crime.

And I can't imagine why you believe the questionable actions of the shooter make this case unusual. Who do you think is usually involved in these Florida SYG shootings? NASA scientists? Physicians at the Mayo Clinic's Jacksonville campus?
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Blue&White
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby Blue&White » Sat Jul 28, 2018 7:26 pm

I get the white shooter/ black victim aspect of this. My point is the video and the police response are what I think makes this compelling. I get there would be outrage without the video. And I get the if both the shooter and victim were black this may not be getting the same media attention. I don't think that matters though.

The video and police response both highlight how crazy these laws are. The idea that you can create a situation, subjectively decide you're threatened and then shoot someone and not even face a trial is seriously messed up. If that is really the law in Florida, then that really needs to change. Who cares if the racial aspect of this is what highlights the insanity of this?
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psu_dad
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby psu_dad » Sat Jul 28, 2018 9:02 pm

The idea that you can create a situation, subjectively decide you're threatened and then shoot someone and not even face a trial is seriously messed up.

From what I read about SYG in Florida, it's not quite that simple. Most often, these cases end up in court.

About a third of the time, charges are not filed (or are subsequently dismissed) by prosecutors. Another third of the time, the shooter prevails in court using the SYG defense. And in the remaining third of the the time, the shooter doesn't prevail in court (either by a conviction or by pleading guilty and making a deal).

As to whether the law needs to change, I'd be inclined to leave that to Florida (assuming there is no conflict with the U.S. Constitution). If someone in Florida proclaimed that a law in MA needed to change, I'm sure the response of the MA legislature would be "go screw yourself".
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sameoldlama
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby sameoldlama » Sun Jul 29, 2018 2:57 pm

I don't agree with the premise the shooter "created the situation" - he didn't take any action that caused the driver to park illegally in the handicapped spot, his actions didn't prevent the driver from moving her car to a legal spot and I didn't see him engage in any action that constituted a physical threat to her and since he never even saw the male from the car coming and never engaged him I don't see how he created a situation where the only course of action he had was to violently knock the man to the ground (I haven't heard any audio so unless he was threatening the woman with physical harm the man had no reason to assault him).

The assertion he started a fight, was losing so he pulled a gun isn't supported by the video or in my estimation - reasonable expectations. As can be seen in the video he does not speak to or even see the man exit the store and come over and violently shove him from the blindside. If that's starting a fight or creating a situation it's a pretty dumb plan as he could have easily been incapacitated from the hit (broken wrist or if he hits his head a concussion).

Society deems illegally parking in a handicapped space to be an act we seek to dissuade and which is unethical and unlawful - to the point someone can receive a sizeable fine or have their car towed. If a police officer had approached this car instead of a private citizen would we claim he picked a fight or created a situation? I would hope not. So why do we consider someone shaming someone who is engaging in antisocial behavior as "creating a situation" or picking a fight and that person should expect to be assaulted?

During the POTUS election anti-Trump protestors went far beyond what this man did I calling out people for what they viewed as unethical behavior - not illegal behavior mind you. The media, celebrity culture, Maxine Waters et al have openly celebrated and called for the harassment of Trump cabinet members for what they view as unethical behavior - again not even illegal behavior. Immigration activists and liberal politicians have called for the harassment of ICE agents for basically enforcing the law. BLM protestors have disrupted lawful gatherings or blocked highways / mass transit in order to protest what they view as injustices - generally impacting people who aren't even the direct source of their protest. Are all these people "creating a situation" and "picking a fight" for which they should expect someone to walk up from their side and punch them in the head?

Look through our pet peeves section - this guy - for whatever reason - decided to make it his life's calling to say something to people who do the things that are rude, antisocial, illegal that most of us just bitch about here rather than confronting someone. You can say his approach to the woman was likely too confrontational or overzealous. I've already said they should let a judge or jury decide if the assault on him rose to level the man reasonably feared for his life and was legally justified to use deadly force but you can argue the premise - shaming someone for illegally parking in a handicapped space is not an unreasonable thing to do. Nothing in the video supports the guy exiting the store should have laid a blindside hit on him without saying a word.

B&W - you have the pet peeve of people not wiping down cardio machines - say the day comes where you've finally had enough - so you call out some girl whose left a machine covered in sweat - and she tells you to eff off - you can't tell her what to do - you respond that it violates club policy and it's gross and rude - so from your blindside her boyfriend comes over and clocks you. Now you don't pull a gun and shoot him but if club management or the police came and said to you "well you created the situation" or "you were picking a fight with that guy" would you say - yeah now that I think about it I was in the wrong. I'm kind of thinking we would be reading a very long rant here. When your son shamed that goof for hurling racial slurs at that girl just standing in the yard - was he creating a situation or picking a fight for which he should expect a violent response? Of course not. Normally if someone has the guts to call out shameful public behavior - even when they might catch backlash from their peer group or get threats from an aggressive ahole we would applaud them.

We all do something at some point we should be ashamed of - and I would expect everyone on this board if they were in hurry and parked in a fire zone or a handicapped and got called out - would actually be contrite and admit they were wrong and likely move their car - because we would feel shame. I don't think any of us would think the proper response would be to tell the person shaming us eff you and cold cocking them.
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Blue&White
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Re: These are a few more of my favorite peeves

Postby Blue&White » Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:37 pm

Walking up to a stranger and pickcing an argument over something that really isn't your business is, in my view, starting the confrontation. Even if the person you go up to has done something wrong (btw the example with my son is a bad one because the asshole was in my son's car. He didn't go out of his way to involve himself. He was involved the minute the kid yelled out the window of the car my son was driving). In your example of the girl who doesn't wipe down the machine, I'd say that - yes, I turned it into a confrontation at the point I contronted her. Seriously,when you walk up to a stranger to basically harass them into altering their behavior what exactly do you think is going to happen? What do you think is going to happen when you confront random strangers about where they parked? Do you think this guy was carrying his gun for the first time that day? I don't. He may have carried a gun with him all the time, but there is a certain amount of parania in doing that. He had to have envisioned someone not reacting well. He had to have known a confrontation that escalated was inevitable if he kept doing this to people because, as we have all notice previously, people are nuts.

I agree with the point you made at the outset of this - this was a perfect storm of stupidity with 3 morons colliding and one of them ending up dead. The guy who was shot was way out of line blindsiding him that way. But, if it was my wife and some jackass started with her in a parking lot (we don't know what was said), I'm not sure how I'd react. I'm not sure I'd just body slam a guy but I'm not sure that's the point. You start a confrontation with strangers - and you do it multiple times, while carrying a gun, it's inevitable something is going to go wrong.

What galls me the most of it is that the shooter likely won't even face charges. That's insane. A jury won't even get the chance to suss this out. Per the sheriff, who already misstated the law once so this may be legally incorrect (I did not take the time to check) as long as the shooter subjetively believes he is in danger he is justified in shooting in self defense. Think about the implications of that for a minute. For most instances where a cop fires his weapon, the standard of review is the "reasonable man" standard. Meaning, an objectively reasonable view of the events based on the average person. That's not what seems to be in play here. It doesn't matter if a normal person thinks they are in danger from a man backing up and not showing weapon. If the shooter does, he can shoot people all day long. Seriously, how can that be? It's a license to gun people down. You never know what is in someone's mind. And, the really stupid thing is, per the sheriff, the it doesn't matter if he was out spoiling for a fight or not. All that matters is this event (which, in my opinion, directly contradicts his view that all that matters is the subjective reasonableness of his actions - seems to me that you have to know his patterns to determine that). It doesn't matter now if the prosecutor goes after him. The shooter's star witness is the sheriff. There is virtually no chance you can get a unanimous 12 person verdict with that testimony.

If this guy was arrested, faced an indictment and a trial, and then he was acquitted, I'd still be appalled but that at leat went through the process. Here, the entire opportunity for justice has been taken away because the sheriff is a schmuck. I don't care if you live in the state of Florida or not, that's really disgusting.
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