Politics

Jerry Garcia
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:13 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Jerry Garcia » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:29 pm

Having one of each, the parental pain ratio is about 3:1. In all fairness my one turned out better than I could have imagined, but the road to get there was like one of those 8-foot wide cliff highways carved into the Andes with two-way 18-wheeler traffic.

Carl Spackler
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Carl Spackler » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:56 pm

One of each, exciting. Both turned out great.

PSUgrower
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:52 am

Re: Politics

Postby PSUgrower » Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:07 am

Another reason why a routine traffic stop could a cops last. https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2017/12/13/indiana-state-police-trooper-shooting-man-arrested/947388001/ Other than the military, what other profession in the US deals with this every single minute of their day?

Blue&White
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:13 am

That's pretty horrible. Glad the cop was ok.

Are you suggesting that this sort of incident gives the police reign to shoot whomever they want without consequences or even questioning of the appropriateness of their use of force? And, if you are not suggesting that, then what are you suggesting here?
#Emmertknew

Carl Spackler
Posts: 316
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Carl Spackler » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:45 am

Blue&White wrote:That's pretty horrible. Glad the cop was ok.

Are you suggesting that this sort of incident gives the police reign to shoot whomever they want without consequences or even questioning of the appropriateness of their use of force? And, if you are not suggesting that, then what are you suggesting here?


As noted earlier, all professions have good and bad actors. A problem in law enforcement is that the badge and gun attitude provides a bad actor excessive means to be a far worse bad actor. I've been told there was a study of general law enforcement officers done where the psychological impact was ascertained, it wasn't pretty in general. Too many wannabes go into that profession, particularly in the local police avenue. Next door neighbor is a rent a cop for several local municipalities and his stories of the antics they think are FUNNY is sad and outrageous. You would not want to be stopped by this man. My family has had several incidents with police in PA and OH and roughly 25% of them have been satisfactory. State Police in OH have a very bad reputation. I just completed the class room portion (eight hours) of my concealed carry permit process and the instructor, who is a county police officer confirmed the bad rep. of state police along with numerous bad actors he knows that should not be employed in this profession. It is a sad situation and escalation is easy to exacerbate into irretrievable consequences. Recognizing that they do have a dangerous profession let's not be naive and think that every incident should be found in favor of the police, that isn't reasonable.

PittGradPSUMad
Posts: 300
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Politics

Postby PittGradPSUMad » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm

PSUgrower wrote:Another reason why a routine traffic stop could a cops last. https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/crime/2017/12/13/indiana-state-police-trooper-shooting-man-arrested/947388001/ Other than the military, what other profession in the US deals with this every single minute of their day?



Yes, police work is dangerous. Police officers go to work every day knowing the most mundane of incidents can turn into their worst nightmare. It is a risk they knowingly accept when embarking on a career in law enforcement, and there is no way for the rest of us to understand what they experience or how we would react under life-threatening duress. Having said that, shooting an unarmed suspect is unacceptable unless the officer can show that his/her life was clearly in danger. And yes, there is gray area aplenty. You can point to the case where several NYPD officers stopped a black man who they took for a robbery suspect. Weapons drawn and ordered by the cops to freeze, the man reached into his coat, and the officers promptly emptied their weapons into the suspect. The autopsy revealed the deceased was felled by fifty-one bullets. The investigation also revealed the man was unarmed and was reaching into his coat pocket for his wallet. He was killed on his own doorstep with over-powering force..a horrifying and tragic mistake because the investigation also revealed that he was innocent. How would anyone react under those same circumstances? Hard to say. On the other hand, a South Carolina policeman recently was sentenced to twenty years in jail for murder after shooting a suspect, a black man, five times in the back as he fled from a traffic stop. No doubt, we're all familiar with this story since it was caught on video and made national news. Not much gray area here, but I've heard some argue that the suspect shouldn't have been running away and deserved to be shot because he obviously must have done something wrong. No, he shouldn't have fled but that still doesn't give the cop license to shoot an unarmed man in the back five times. These are just two of many tragic incidents that represent opposite ends of the spectrum with plenty of gray area in between. And while there are some bad actors who have no business wearing the uniform, the vast majority of police officers are good people performing difficult work who deserve our thanks and respect. But shooting an unarmed person?.......no. Hell no!
Yeah, well, that's like your opinion, man.

Blue&White
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:47 pm

I'm a white, middle class male. Have been all my life. And, as such, my experience with police encounters is very limited. They broke up some parties when I was a kid, been pulled over maybe a half dozen times in 30 years of driving, with fewer tickets than pull overs, and gave a statement or 2 because of an accident I saw. I once called the local cops because my neighbors house looked like someone had been inside while they were away. For the most part, my interactions were fine. Everyone was polite and mostly professional (teenage me probably didn't think so, but what did he know?). There are probably encounters I can't think of right now but I doubt they were much different. I have no personal experience that should lead me to distrust or fear the police. I suspect that is true for a large percentage of Americans. But not all of them.

Regardless of what any one personal experience has been, or what bad things have happened to police officers where they have been shot at or killed, there have been instances of the use of force by the police that do not meet the standard of a reasonable use of force and should be viewed as criminal actions. I, personally, think one such instance is that guy who was shot in his hotel in the video Nat linked. Oh, btw - I read (but have not confirmed) that the DA was not able to show that video in court. There is also a longer version of it that shows more of the before and after. The guy had been drinking and the police kept giving him conflicting commands. Eventually they shot him. I've now read a few things that said they violated basic police procedure. Making the guy crawl like that and cross his legs does not meet with normal standards. It does not make the police safer.

The blew it. They killed someone for no good reason and they got away with it. It happens and it happens all to often. Unfortunately, things like the shooting in the article Grower linked happen all too often too. Glad that cop is ok but that situation does not absolve them of all guilt.
#Emmertknew

PSUgrower
Posts: 328
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:52 am

Re: Politics

Postby PSUgrower » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:34 pm

I know there are crappy cops out there. There are also crappy teachers, lawyers (well give bdub benefit of doubt), and every other profession under the sun. I am not saying we can't be armchair coaches. I think it is tough for us to truly know what is going through the cops head because i/we have no concept of it. There are chemical reactions in the body and brain that make humand fight or flight. Yes, these men and women of the law need to be held accountable. I just find it hard to hold a policeman accountable when they get a call that someone has a gun, they do not follow any directions, continue reaching in their waist, and then they get shot.

One other issue with police is they are trained militeristically. It is a yes sir/no sir, type of training. IMO, that is a huge issue with police

PSUgrower
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Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:52 am

Re: Politics

Postby PSUgrower » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:06 pm

If you have ever watched any Live PD, you will see all the vitriol expressed at our men and women in blue.

Blue&White
Posts: 1485
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:31 pm

We shouldn't have to figure out what is going through their head or what they are thinking to assign accountability, though. That is an impossible standard to meet. The standard of judgement is objective reasonableness given the situation and the totality of the circumstances. You have a bunch of cops go into a building to arrest a suspected drug lord with a reputation for violence, they meet a guy inside sitting on the stairs, they tell the guy to freeze and identify himself, the poor guy, who is unarmed and ultimately no threat, makes the mistake of reaching for his wallet. The cops told him not to move, it's dark, he makes a move towards where a gun can be hidden, and a number of them shot him. 51 times to be exact. That is an absolutely horrific situation and outcome, but it is somewhat understandable. Multiple cops in the situation thought he posed a threat and opened fire. That whole thing sucked, but I think a reasonable person can understand how it happened, why it happened, and why there was ultimately no criminal charges filed.

Compare that to what happened in that other video. They had every opportunity to take control over that situation. Put the guy on his knees, put his hands in the air, and go up and cuff him and make sure you are secure. They didn't do that. Instead they put this drunk, scared guy through a series of actions that he was having trouble complying with, some conflicted with others, and when he couldn't keep it all straight the cop screaming conflicting orders shoots him. I don't care what was going through that guys head, that was not objectively reasonable. At minimum, that should have been manslaughter.

And, if it's correct that the prosecution couldn't show that video at trial, that's seriously messed up and probably the reason the cop got off because I can't imagine how a jury can look at that and think "yep, that seems about right".
#Emmertknew