Politics

Blue&White
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Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:56 am

I don't understand what point you are making by bringing up Scott Brown. I wasn't suggesting that Alabama is now a blue state or that Democrats will now be successful there. I wasn't even coming to close to making a point like that as I don't believe it. My point was that a Democrat winning in Alabama could be a signal that voters will hold politicians accountable at the voting both if it turns out they are scumbags in their private lives, and maybe that will influence behavior going forward. Or, at minimum, give us a more moral crop of people to vote for. I said nothing about the meaning of this election beyond that and I think Jones holds onto that seat until it comes up for reelection.

Btw, I'd have to go back and double check, but I'm reasonably sure you're wrong on your example of social security tax. The idea to raise the social security tax came out of a commission that was created by Reagan and headed by Alan Greenspan. It was the ultimate con job where they raised taxes on the American public under the guise of "saving" the social security fund, then raided all the money and replaced it with IOUs. I've read about that cluster f*ck several times and I don't recall reading anywhere that Reagan was kicking and screaming on his way to sign that bill. On the contrary, I think he was dancing and singing and couldn't believe he was about to get away with it.
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Blue&White
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Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:09 am

Ok, just to make the point again - here is an article headlining ABC News right now: ANALYSIS: Democrats find winning formula in Alabama as Trump 'resistance' meets #MeToo

The formula for winning in Alabama was to run against an opponent who was accused of molesting children when he was a DA and who gave differing accounts of his actions (which stemmed from "I never did anything without first asking mom if it was ok" to "I never heard of any of these women before"). This article points out that those circumstances are unlikely to repeat themselves (one would hope), but that the Democrats can learn from this. I think the main lesson to learn from this is that women are not necessarily going to vote party lines for someone accused of molesting girls the age of their own daughters. Beyond that, I don't think there are a whole lot of lessons. Run people that don't have that kind of baggage is the real lesson learned.

One thing that I think can be a problem for the Republicans going forward was this line: Jones locked down the votes of women with children under 18 at home by a 34-point margin, according to exit polls.

Trump ultimately endorsed Moore and, while a lot of Republicans kept their distance and out right condemned him up until the end, the Party itself did ultimately endorse him and give him money to spend at the end. I think the Democrats were counting on that demographic of women to be repulsed by that and are hoping they can carry that into 2018. That's the real reason the pushed Franken out. Not because of some sense of outrage but because they think it gives them the moral high ground on an issue that may sway women voters. And, it may work. I guess we will know in 11 months.
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sameoldlama
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Re: Politics

Postby sameoldlama » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:34 am

Everything ugly about politicians is surfacing during Trumpsanity.

I agree 100% that Franken, Conyers, Franks, et al being pushed out by there parties had zero to do with ethical soul searching and everything to do with pandering in the moment - Conyers and Franks actions weren't new revelations and Dems did a total flip from their original position on Franken.

If Roy Moore cared about the party or his constituents - and give him the benefit of the doubt and say allegations were false - he should have stepped aside because it had become evident he was a liability to the party and their ability to move their agenda forward. But Roy Moore has always been about Roy Moore and nobody was going to make Roy Moore back down. That's who he has always been. Aside from the accusations his legacy will be to have handed away a virtually guaranteed seat to Democrats. You'd think a Hillary Clinton sized thunderbolt of self awareness should hit this guy of just how much he is disliked but don't bet on it.

I enjoyed Al Franken's "resignation" speech. It included calling all the women accusing him liars while maintaining all Trump's and Moore's accusers are telling the truth and didn't include an actual resignation. Want to bet to he's waiting to see if political winds shift enough that he can hang on? I've always found Franken to be an ahole. I think he is a very intelligent guy but he comes a cross as the very smart guy who is jealous and bitter because he doesn't feel he gets his due as a "super genius" and he carries a huge chip on his shoulder when he sees how frequently society (and women) laud guys who are athletic, good looking or wealthy. And IMO that is why he was always such a smarmy smart ass.

The guys being blown up to date in the whole "#metoo" movement aren't a sympathetic bunch - most are getting exactly what they deserve. But as others on the board have pointed out there is a danger in destroying every man in site on the basis of 30 year old, unvetted accusations with parsing for how serious a given offense may have been. I think a risk incurred may be that potentially good leaders may avoid stepping up because they fear they may be outed because they were drunk in college and pinched a girls butt or grabbed a boob a quarter century ago. I don't know that we want to go there.

I will say even I am amazed at the number of people who went after Trump from jump who have now been caught in the very trap they put out for him (between the harassment allegations and investigations). Maybe these people should start looking forward and offer a contrast of how they can better serve people rather than just seeking revenge on Trump for crashing their party.
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Blue&White
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Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:46 am

I think a risk incurred may be that potentially good leaders may avoid stepping up because they fear they may be outed because they were drunk in college and pinched a girls butt or grabbed a boob a quarter century ago. I don't know that we want to go there.

I think we are at that point already. I can tell you that I know several women, including my wife, who think it's beyond the point of ridiculous. My wife thought it was ridiculous for Franken to resign. Not because she likes him (she does, and she concedes she may be biased) but because she thinks it's ridiculous to kick a guy out for basically copping a feel while taking a picture. When she was in sales 20 years ago there was not a sales call where some potential customer wouldn't find a way to get his hand on her ass. She didn't like it, but she thinks it doesn't quite meet the standard of sexual assault or even harassment.

I said that perhaps she put up with it for so long that the bar of her expectations was set way too low. women shouldn't have to deal with being groped while they are working. But, the point about what we all did in college is well taken. I'm sure I did things during my time at PSU I wouldn't want coming back up today.

It's an interesting time. In a very short amount of time we have gone from the extreme of basic apathy to these things to the other extreme of extreme outrage.
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psu_dad
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Re: Politics

Postby psu_dad » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:50 am

The idea to raise the social security tax came out of a commission that was created by Reagan and headed by Alan Greenspan.

I distinctly remember a photo of Reagan and O'Neil standing next to other after the bill was signed, basking in the glow of their bi-partisan effort. Truth be told, Reagan secretly wanted to privatize SS. But prior to his running for POTUS in 1980, his handlers told him drop that issue like a hot potato. They thought it was political suicide.
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Blue&White
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Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:28 am

I don't dispute that O'Neil was happy with the outcome. What I dispute was that this was a massive compromise for Reagan who wanted to go a totally different direction. Maybe her, personally, really did, I have no idea. But, the idea of raising social security taxes originated from the Reagan administration and his committee on fixing social security headed by Reagan's hand-picked champion, Alan "Market Bubble" Greenspan and not the Congressional Democrats. That was my point. I'm happy to concede that the Democrats all got stiffies over the bill. I'm sure they did.
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PSUgrower
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Re: Politics

Postby PSUgrower » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:39 am

Blue&White wrote: I think a risk incurred may be that potentially good leaders may avoid stepping up because they fear they may be outed because they were drunk in college and pinched a girls butt or grabbed a boob a quarter century ago. I don't know that we want to go there.

I think we are at that point already. I can tell you that I know several women, including my wife, who think it's beyond the point of ridiculous. My wife thought it was ridiculous for Franken to resign. Not because she likes him (she does, and she concedes she may be biased) but because she thinks it's ridiculous to kick a guy out for basically copping a feel while taking a picture. When she was in sales 20 years ago there was not a sales call where some potential customer wouldn't find a way to get his hand on her ass. She didn't like it, but she thinks it doesn't quite meet the standard of sexual assault or even harassment.

I said that perhaps she put up with it for so long that the bar of her expectations was set way too low. women shouldn't have to deal with being groped while they are working. But, the point about what we all did in college is well taken. I'm sure I did things during my time at PSU I wouldn't want coming back up today.

It's an interesting time. In a very short amount of time we have gone from the extreme of basic apathy to these things to the other extreme of extreme outrage.


We should be outraged and pissed off. I am sorry but I have never copped a feel on a woman. I don't understand how someone in power feels it is okay to touch a boob or rump. I am completely lost on this one. You want to touch a boob, you ask the girl if she wants to get a few drinks or you talk to her into the wee hours of the night. Then you make a move to give her a kiss and go from there. You will find out real quick if you will get a touch. My daughter knows that if anyone ever touches in the wrong way she has every right to drill them right in the nuts- and she is seven! It is not okay to touch people inappropriately. You want to touch a stranger or a coworker, hire a call girl and make her dress up like the coworker. Then you can grope her all you want for an hour or 2! The only thing it will cost is your money.

sameoldlama
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Re: Politics

Postby sameoldlama » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:19 am

Nobody is saying grabbing a butt or boob is appropriate but what we are saying is there needs to be proportionality in the responses to these allegations. Grabbing a butt cheek once or twice 30 years ago isn't proportional to forcible rape (something HW has been accused and has been on going). I am guessing most guys thought they had a green light for an advance with a girl only to be rebuffed at some point in their life - there's a difference between misreading a girls acceptance and forcible action and some of us are concerned that line is being lost.

In my youth I was really fit, and won some natural bodybuilding contests - I can tell you I was pinched, grabbed, touched at work, at gym and oh lord for sure at bars - bachelorette parties thought I was a prop. I'd say guys aren't as likely to act negatively to it because we are used to having to be the aggressor so when a girl grabs you - it's like you don't have to work for a change. Plus I just never took it personal - it was just girls out having fun and it's an expected reaction. Guys you would be surprised at drunken girl pack mentality.

To me there is also a big difference between the setting in which something occurs - there a big difference in someone making an advance in a professional setting vs. a social setting. To me there is a big difference between a 50 year old Congressmen making inappropriate advance on a staffer and 25 year old Ben Affleck grazing a boob during an MTV spring break party.
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Nat@PSU
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Re: Politics

Postby Nat@PSU » Wed Dec 13, 2017 11:36 am

I don't disagree with much of what has been said, but I think the primary context for much of what we have seen in the news is that of power. Many of these accusations are levied at men in positions of power, particularly over the women who are accusing them of misconduct. That to me is the primary differentiation.

If you're at a bar and I drunkenly cross a line with a woman, well, you're a drunk creep who is acting out of bounds. But if you do the same thing to a woman within your sphere of power and influence professionally, then that is a different animal in my opinion. The unspoken message there is, at least to a certain extent, "I run this domain and can do as I please and if you're offended or I'm rebuffed it may not only be a bruised ego on my end but a change in the woman's status as a result." That carries different weight and while I do understand and to a certain extent agree with the concern that in this wave of valid accusations there are some relatively innocent mean whose intents were innocuous who are being steamrolled, the dynamic shift we are seeing is both important and meaningful for women in the workplace.
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Blue&White
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Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:21 pm

That carries different weight and while I do understand and to a certain extent agree with the concern that in this wave of valid accusations there are some relatively innocent mean whose intents were innocuous who are being steamrolled, the dynamic shift we are seeing is both important and meaningful for women in the workplace.

And for women who took pictures with Al Franken in public places. Don't forget them.
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