Politics

Blue&White
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:37 am

People shat on my wife's ancestors and my ancestors when they came here and that didn't stop them from integrating.

Integrating how? Define integrating.

My family was part of this and I know a bit about it. The Irish and Italians and Jews all lived in their "own" neighborhoods in major cities. In the new world ethnic minorities stuck to their own for a long, long time. I've seen pictures from the 1920s and 30s where store fronts had signs that said things like "Help Wanted" followed by admonishments that Jews, Italians, Irish, etc. need not apply. That went on for a long time in this country. There are today even in the suburbs of major cities towns that have large percentages of Jews or Catholics because even when they moved out of the cities they were not really welcome. It's not a coincidence that large groups of them ended up one geographic area. A lot of those boundaries are starting to break down now. The area I live in was once overwhelmingly Catholic but as people have gotten older and moved or died and new people bought the house the dynamics of it changes. Progress marches on. But, it wasn't always that way and it took a very, very long time.

We've discussed this before. It wasn't until after WW2 that a lot of the ethnic discrimination in this country started to disappear. When the horrors of the Nazis were revealed people were less inclined to judge based just on ethnicity. But, even in the 1960s and into the 70s major Universities continued to have quotas on how many Jews they would accept. There were certain white shoe law firms that only hired WASPS and male wasps at that. And, Jim Crowe continued in the south until the federal government stepped in. You can argue that your ancestors just integrated all you want, but the reality is that society wasn't all that accepting for a very long time. And your ancestors, and your wife's ancestors, and my ancestors were all white. For non-whites it has always been different here. They have always been treated differently, and usually worse.

Sorry, but the history of the US does not line up with your statement. it doesn't. And, for immigrants today it's no different. Many of them are, I'm sure, doing their best and trying to become Americans. But, it has to work both ways. If you are trying to be accepted then the people here have to be willing to accept you. It's better than it was. Today there are laws protecting against discrimination. But, it absolutely happens.
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psu_dad
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Politics

Postby psu_dad » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:44 pm

We're not talking about the same thing. You're talking about physical integration and I'm talking about cultural integration.

And I know this notion of how immigration worked in the 19th and early 20th century makes people feel all warm & gooey inside. And it was a wonderful thing for my family, in retrospect. But that doesn't make it a valid argument for contemporary immigration policy. The people who were already here during those waves of immigration were resentful of the newcomers, but at least the immigrants weren't a financial boat anchor. Had the 19th and early 20th century "nativists" been taxed to provide housing, food, special Ed, health care, etc. to immigrants as people are today, there's no way that immigration would have continued at the level it did. There would have been a Shit Storm of Biblical Proportions. We conveniently leave that out when waxing poetic about our immigration legacy.

We're not remotely the same country. We need a different policy.
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Blue&White
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:53 pm

For the record, I don't in any way support the idea of bringing in hordes of people who have no obvious means of being financially self sustaining. I'm not suggesting that at all. My point is that even when looking at educated people there seems to be an increasing amount of racism in immigration policy and how non-white immigrants are treated once they get here.
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?

psu_dad
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Politics

Postby psu_dad » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:03 pm

I guess I'm oblivious to that. I've found myself working on several projects recently where "white guys" were the minority (not that I care). On one project last year I played the role of the experienced "graybeard" and worked with three very bright young people whose families had recently immigrated from India, Thailand and The Philippines. It hardly resembled a Klan meeting.

Maybe I need to get out more.
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psu_dad
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Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Politics

Postby psu_dad » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:49 pm

PS - Was this all prompted by something Trump said? I was clicking past the news channels on the TV in my office and saw the words "Trump" and "vile" and "racist" as I went clicking by.

What does the media have their panties in a wad over now?
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Blue&White
Posts: 2006
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:02 pm

Before I answer that, how many anecdotes to I have to provide to counter your anecdote? Because, anecdotes absolutely are evidence of something. I just want to get the right amount.

As for your question, he apparently asked why we would take immigrants from "shithole" countries like Haiti or any place in Africa and wanted to know whey we can't get more immigrants from Norway. If you're not familiar with Norway, it's the country where we just sold a bunch of F52 airplanes to. If you're not familiar with the F52, it's because it's a made-up warplane that, apparently, only appears in a video game called Call of Duty (a British friend of mine sent me that one from the BBC - I laughed). Yesterday the White House did not deny the "shithole countries" comment and basically doubled down. Today Trump claims he never said it. But, unlike most of these stories, this was not unsourced. Senator Dick Durbin was the source and he relied the comments in an interview. So, either Trump is lying or Durbin is lying. I have no problem believing Durbin lies but, if I had to wager, I'd put my money on Trump saying exactly what he's accused of saying.

I just find the whole thing hilarious. And, I think there is a major bright side. Between the revelations that he doesn't hit the office until around 11, and his going off half cocked on every perceived slight, he has little time to get anything done, which is perfect in my opinion. Sure, he's disgusting, but what powerful person isn't? When corporate America sends it's rich to run for office or serve in an agency they are sending people that have a lot of problems. They are not sending their best. They are sending bribe takers. They are sending rapists. And, some, I assume, are good people. So, while he's not smart enough to keep his big mouth shut, is he really more vile than, say, Bill Clinton?

In fairness, I think W. Bush and Obama, while they certainly had their foibles and moral failures, were not misogynists and I'd be surprised if it came out either one of them were cheating on their spouse or assaulting women. Although, I also would have bet that the elder George Bush wasn't sitting in his wheel chair and pinching women on the bum so who knows.
Alex Cora sucks. Mickey Callaway sucks. Baseball sucks. Everything and everyone just sucks. Is it football season yet?

psu_dad
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Politics

Postby psu_dad » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:35 pm

Dick Durbin was the source

Then it must be true. :lol:

I have no doubt believing he thinks that way. I'm sure a lot of people think of Haiti as a shithole. Saying it with a Democrat in the room is another matter. He needs to do a head count next time.
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LioninVa
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:49 am

Re: Politics

Postby LioninVa » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:47 pm

No, he needs to mature and act presidential. And, before you tell me about LBJ holding a meeting while taking a dump as a comparison, is that the marker you want to measure a President by? I very much expect, no, demand more from that office. So should you.

psu_dad
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm

Re: Politics

Postby psu_dad » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:53 pm

I've known he was an a-hole from Day One. So I'm not going to pull a "Captain Renault" now. He's not going to conform to anyone's notion of what it means to be "presidential". Get used to it.
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LioninVa
Posts: 500
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:49 am

Re: Politics

Postby LioninVa » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:57 pm

So did I, _dad I also knew he had no propensity to hold the office, which is why I did not vote for him.