Politics

Nat@PSU
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Nat@PSU » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:10 am

I would love to see the collective response if one time a Republican lost an electoral college vote and held a majority of the popular vote. Just once.

I'm sure the words used would be "fair and square". :roll:

Hillary lost for a number of reasons. Her campaign made some horrible choices and she was, admittedly, the worst possible candidate for that date and time. But to ignore foreign influence, which has been confirmed by ALL of our intelligence agencies, is silly IMHO. Was it sufficient to push it over the edge? I don't know. And I don't think we will ever have a clear picture. But saying it wasn't a factor is just as much of a fairytale as the narrative that it was the ONLY reason Trump won. Not shockingly the reality is somewhere in between.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Blue&White
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Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:07 am

The left claims to be the side for peace, love and sunshine. All I can say about that is from roughly 2008-11 they had the White House and a supermajority in Congress which means they could have literally turned the Pentagon into a giant peace symbol if they wanted to. Not only did they fail to do that, and fail to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, they EXPANDED the wars into Libya and Syria. How about all those drone bombings too?

I don't know who this "left" is that you refer to but the Democratic party has never, ever made any of the assertions you seem to be ascribing to them. Seriously Crowbar, implying the Democrats are somehow the party of "peace, leave and sunshine" is the funniest thing I've read on this forum since Lama called Hillary Clinton an "extreme leftist". Stop, you're making my sides hurt.

As for Russian interference, I am also in the camp of people who seriously question how much influence they really had. I think social media in general had an influence but I have a lot of doubts about how much impact Russian trolls really had on the election. For a lot of reasons.
Baseball season!!!!

Nat@PSU
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Nat@PSU » Sun Mar 24, 2019 2:23 pm

I'll be honest Blue&White, I spend a lot of time on Twitter. I love it for sports and current events, comedy, etc. I've seen the bot influence grown and grow. Basically, it amplifies the loudest most extreme voices by echoing extreme left or right views. It does appear to happen from both ends of the political spectrum but with substantially greater frequency from the hard right.

It appears intended to divide our country. It also appears to be working. I'm don't think it created the divide but I do think it allowed it to hit a resonant frequency and amplify the divide. It has helped to remove all nuance and continue tribalism (you're either with us or them) and I'll admit, I've hardly been immune.

If you doubt that Russia (and China for that matter and a hot.ofmother bad actors) hasn't invested time, energy, and resources into disrupting and influencing the political landscape I would agree. From my perspective much of the Russian Influence / collusion talk points to a number of incidents where people involved with the Trump campaign, wittingly, and unwittingly embraced assistance that was either not vetted or known but seemed to outweigh the negatives. I also believe Trump never thought he would win and was trying to leverage it into a Trump tower Moscow deal. I don't think the dots will ever be neatly connected (nor will they be enough for charges, particularly against Trump with the DOJ policy being not to indict a sitting President.

But I think the Trump Organization, a number of people involved with his campaign, his family and himself, engaged in a wide variety of behavior that would be considered intolerable from most rational perspectives. Did it cross over into illegality? I don't know. I'd like to see then Mueller report in it's entirety. I also think a lot of the bad faith stuff I've referenced from the right comes from a "the juice is worth the squeeze" perspective. They've gladly traded any supposed principled standings for power and policy (Tax cuts, culture wars, this insane "First Amendment" stuff). I don't agree with it, but I understand what's happening.

In my opinion, this has been the most divisive presidency of my lifetime. And I'm not sure I see a path out of the acrimony it's produced. I do believe, generally speaking, that sunshine is the best disinfectant. But time will tell.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Crowbar
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Re: Politics

Postby Crowbar » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:17 pm

Nat@PSU wrote:

I'm sure the words used would be "fair and square". :roll:



Of course they wouldn't.

And arrogance and overconfidence cost Hillary the election. Not Trump's fault she didn't campaign (or campaigned very little) in PA, Ohio, Michigan and Wisconsin. The deplorable comment didn't help either.

You can say what you want, but Hillary had the presidency locked up and she blew it.
National Champions 1911, 1912, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1994

Crowbar
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Re: Politics

Postby Crowbar » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:26 pm

Blue&White wrote:The left claims to be the side for peace, love and sunshine. All I can say about that is from roughly 2008-11 they had the White House and a supermajority in Congress which means they could have literally turned the Pentagon into a giant peace symbol if they wanted to. Not only did they fail to do that, and fail to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, they EXPANDED the wars into Libya and Syria. How about all those drone bombings too?

I don't know who this "left" is that you refer to but the Democratic party has never, ever made any of the assertions you seem to be ascribing to them. Seriously Crowbar, implying the Democrats are somehow the party of "peace, leave and sunshine" is the funniest thing I've read on this forum since Lama called Hillary Clinton an "extreme leftist". Stop, you're making my sides hurt.

As for Russian interference, I am also in the camp of people who seriously question how much influence they really had. I think social media in general had an influence but I have a lot of doubts about how much impact Russian trolls really had on the election. For a lot of reasons.


What are you talking about?

This is the party of the likes of Bernie Sanders, George McGovern and many other "doves."
National Champions 1911, 1912, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1994

Crowbar
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Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Crowbar » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:29 pm

And this exactly what's wrong.

You can't make a political opinion without people being assholes about it.

I'm out.
National Champions 1911, 1912, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1994

Nat@PSU
Posts: 325
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Nat@PSU » Sun Mar 24, 2019 10:16 pm

Crowbar wrote:And this exactly what's wrong.

You can't make a political opinion without people being assholes about it.

I'm out.


Crowbar, don't leave on my account. I disagree with you but don't think it should cause you to leave. My bad if that was your perspective from my end.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Blue&White
Posts: 3357
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:52 am

I think it was what I said, not what you said. And, I wasn't trying to be obnoxious in my reponse so apologies if that came out wrong. But, my point is you can't look at an outlier and say that represents the norm. It's like looking at David Duke, a former Republican gubernatorial candidate in Louisiana and saying therefore all Republicans are Klansmen. That's clearly not true. I know many people who are lifelong Republicans who are disgusted by people like Duke. It's not fair to paint them all with that brush.

The fact is that the Democrats are by no means the "party of doves". The expansions that Crowbar referred to are their norm, not their exception. The Democrats are just as much in bed with the defense contractors as the Republicans and they have been just as hawish, of not more so. It was the Democrats that expanded US involvement into Viet Nam in the 60s. It was the Democrats who involved us in the Balkans in the 90s. And, as Crowbar pointed out, it was the Democrats who involved us in Lybia and Syria. While invidiual Democrats may run on a different policy, in general there is nothing hypocritical about the Democrats continuing to expand US military involvement around the world. It is very much who they are.

Btw Crow, the examples you gave not great ones. There are better choices for "doves".

George McGovern was not a pacifist. He was a WWII pilot who volunteered to fly B24s and flew almost 3 dozen bombing missions over Germany. He was a genuine American hero. But, based on his experience, he was firmly against needless use of military force and opposed the Viet Nam war on moral grounds. He wasn't against fighting when a fight was required. He was against that particular fight. But, that's not why he's a bad example. He's a bad example because the only reason he won the nomination was Bobby Kennedy was murdered during the primary and the Democrats were so fractured they couldn't keep him out. After his nomination they changed the entire structure of the primary to ensure someone like McGovern never got the nod again. Hardy the act of a party of "doves'.

Sanders is a different take. But, his view of military intervention is very close to what Donald Trump espoused during his campaign. So, there's that.

Anyway, sorry again if I came off as an asshole in my response. I didn't mean to. But, I know you are smarter than that.
Baseball season!!!!

Nittany Flier
Posts: 32
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 9:06 am

Re: Politics

Postby Nittany Flier » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:20 pm

I guess you could classify this as ancient history, but I believe Nixon won the popular vote and lost the electoral vote to Kennedy.

Carl Spackler
Posts: 467
Joined: Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:22 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Carl Spackler » Mon Mar 25, 2019 12:48 pm

I've avoided this entire topic as politics is, well, politics, garbage.

The assertion that the Russian's interfered in our elections trying to influence them is pretty funny. Of course, they did as did most other nations. They were wildly unsuccessful as usual because it is incredibly difficult to interfere in a national election in the USA. But that doesn't stop other nations from trying. We do it all the time to them, heck we used to off candidates in other nations or their dictators or others we didn't feel we're in our "national interest" so why would any thinking American ever dream they would not attempt to influence our elections that impact them so much?

Our record of interfering in other nations business on the premise of it impacting our interest is voluminous. We have been doing it for over 200 years. We are national experts at it and will not miss a chance to do so. My least fond interference in a political situation is VIETNAM. Only cost us a generation of my friends and roughly 58,000 lives plus countless destroyed people. But, why not, the domino theory is so valid because Vietnam is a Communist despotic mecca now, right? Our geniuses are legendary and with breathtaking accuracy.

So the brouhaha over Russian interference which turns out to be a Clinton campaign document, novel, funded to a British author with a vivid imagination and has cost us Lord knows what amount of cash by now. The result, "never mind" as Emily Litella so aptly noted so many times. Maybe Emily would be a good national symbol for or political intrigue.

Rinse and repeat.....it never ends. Damn sad example of our quest for truth and justice.

I remember hearing Harry Reid interviewed post-election after his accusation of an opponents tax evasion that impacted the election. The reporter told Harry that the opponent was completely innocent as proved by others. Harry's typical answer was.....It worked, didn't it? With that attitude pervasive I see no hope for improvement.

I'm out.
So I got that going for me...which is nice. It's a cross between Kentucky Bluegrass, Featherbed Bent and Northern California Sensimilla so you can play 36 holes on it,take it home at night and get stoned to the begesses belt