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Locker Room Random Thoughts

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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby psu_dad » Sun Dec 18, 2016 12:46 am

If it's criminal, that should be decided in a court of law.

The local legal authorities did their own investigation and decided it did not warrant a prosecution. Whether political pressure will be applied to change their minds, who knows.

But even if/when the local legal authorities get involved, colleges are still required under Title IX to conduct their own investigations and issue their own punishments (as they see fit). The decision of a district attorney that a "crime" has not occurred or cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt means you're not going to jail. It doesn't mean you're not getting expelled.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby Blue&White » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:44 am

Lama

Sorry, but I'm really confused by your post. You start with mentioning the Freeh Report and the Duke Lacrosse team, I interpreted that to mean "don't necessarily believe the report", which is a fair enough point. But, then you go on to "obviously, something very, very bad happened". So, it's not clear to me what point you are trying to make. Was the school right or wrong? I'm not picking on you, I'm just asking for clarification because I just didn't follow.

As for the rest and your speculation on the girl, I just have no idea. I'm sure there are girls who behave exactly as you describe. I am equally sure there are plenty who don't. I don't know anything at all about the girl in this report so I won't speculate, except to say the report reads to me like she was taken advantage of and treated in a way that no person should ever be treated by another person who group of people. I don't care what her intentions were, no one deserves to be treated like that and no one asks for it. Was it a crime? I don't know enough of the facts but, absent any evidence, can accept the cops felt they didn't have sufficient cause for an arrest. But, that doesn't mean the university is not within it's rights to take actions. I think it's more than just a Title IX requirement, too. At some point, the morality that should govern all people kicks in.

This is a little off the point. My original point in this story was I supported the players sticking up against an unfair process that lacks transparency and fairness. And, I still feel that way. But, given some of the details that have been filled in, this may not have been the hill they wanted to die on, if you know what I mean. It's a flawed process, but that doesn't mean they always get it wrong.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby reincarnatedlama » Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:21 pm

What I am saying is there is a big difference between bad judgment and stupidity and criminal action. Something can be stupid and wrong but not necessarily criminal.
I agree sexual assault is a horrible crime and when it occurs should be pursued by the proper authorities and punished. Equally horrible is someone being falsely accused of sexual assault and having their life irreparably damaged and the current climate on campus these days is guilty until proven innocent in these cases with little or no due process and especially if the accused are athletes or fraternity brothers. Think Anwar Phillips, Austin Scott, frat at University of Virginia.

As I said in my original post I agree with the University decision that the player's actions warranted dismissal from the team and in some cases expulsion. The player described as "A2" authored his ticket out by furnishing a recruit with alcohol and involving him in this fiasco and by broadcasting his "conquest" and inviting an audience. The last three players who entered the room - I can't even imagine what they were thinking. But 18 year old drunk, immature, impulsive kids do really dumb things - especially when a bunch of them get together. Between the incidents at Baylor and Vanderbilt you'd think a light bulb would go off in someone cranium "hey this may turn out badly".

I read the majority of the report - and in my opinion it was written with a bias of "what supports the woman's account and how can we downplay / discount inconsistencies or illogical elements of her account and how can we turn any inconsistency in the accused player's accounts as proof they are not credible and guilty".
Based on what I read I believe the encounter between the woman and A2 and the recruit was entirely consensual and it's possible the encounters with A6 and A1 were consensual. I would say the sex with players A4 and A5 likely was not consensual.

Based on what I read I can readily agree that at minimum players A2, A4, A5 should be expelled and their actions border on criminal. A1 and A6 should be off team and suspended from school - but if the decision is they don't have a big argument against it. The other players I would say warrant suspensions.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby gmay10 » Sun Dec 18, 2016 9:24 pm

I would suspend all of them or dismiss them from the team. Send a message to the players that running train on a girl is wrong and you will thrown off the team if it happens. I get that some women want to seep with footballers but this was ridiculous.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby reincarnatedlama » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:48 pm

The issue isn't whether any of us approve of someone's sexual behavior - you or I may not approve of things like group sex, S&M, adultery etc. and very conservative people would not approve of gay sex or sex outside of marriage. Should students be potentially kicked out of school for these activities?
I wouldn't want to be the caboose on the train either but I also don't want people telling me what I as a consenting adult can do.

The issue is consent. The question at hand is - was this girl a willing participant and did the actions of other people present warrant sexual harassment (the people outside room).
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby Blue&White » Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:52 pm

reincarnatedlama wrote:The issue isn't whether any of us approve of someone's sexual behavior - you or I may not approve of things like group sex, S&M, adultery etc. and very conservative people would not approve of gay sex or sex outside of marriage. Should students be potentially kicked out of school for these activities?
I wouldn't want to be the caboose on the train either but I also don't want people telling me what I as a consenting adult can do.

The issue is consent. The question at hand is - was this girl a willing participant and did the actions of other people present warrant sexual harassment (the people outside room).


I agree. And, consents definitely gets tricky. From a strict legal sense, she may have consented enough that there was no rape. But, from the sense of "are these the people you want wearing your school's football uniform and representing your university", I think that is a different, lower standard. A bunch of guys showing up and basically a coercing a girl in her late teens or early 20s who's had a little too much to drink to have sex with a bunch of guys may not quite qualify as criminals, but I don't think the school is out of line to say "not on our team".
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby reincarnatedlama » Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:47 pm

If guys using alcohol to coerce girls into hooking up becomes a standard for expulsion we are going to have a nation of all girls colleges.
I understand the issue people have is these guys went over the line by passing her around like an object and ringing a dinner bell. If this stopped after the initial encounter or after "A6" it probably doesn't blow up. Things went FUBAR when an audience and A1, A4, A5 show up.
People may disagree but I suspect if the activity were limited to those first two encounters (A2, recruit and A6) and these dumb a$$es don't turn it into a public spectacle by sending out video and bringing around a cheering audience and they just act nice to her following this doesn't blow up. They basically humiliated this girl and most people don't take well to be publicly humiliated within their peer group. A response will follow.

And I don't have deep sympathies for these guys - I get they are 18-19 and are impulsive, immature and don't think of long term consequences but given previous nationally covered incidents and the current political and social climates on campus you don't need to be the class valedictorian to see this was clearly going to go badly and have severe consequences.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby LioninVa » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:08 pm

I also have no sympathy for the guys involved in this. Yes, they are young and obviously not the most intelligent or common sense based boys. I also understand that group activities happen even if I can't comprehend the situation. We are supposed to be smarter than animals, and that is what scares me. Even more, if these kids are moderately intelligent, then they know better and just didn't care. It reminds me of the years old "We're football, let us in" story only far, far worse.

These young men seem to have a sense of entitlement and can do whatever they please. Or, they are no smarter than dogs, and that's an insult to dogs everywhere.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby reincarnatedlama » Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:47 pm

Since I am on my soapbox today - this is what you get with liberal progressivism. This comes with participation trophies, mommy and daddy badgering the teacher every time their child doesn't get an A, when people can enjoy the rights of citizenship when they enter the country illegally and when we constantly expand the number of victim classes that deserve special rules (or a waiver to not follow rules).
When you subvert the basic reality that actions and decisions have actions and consequences you get chaos and instability. And the people who absolutely understand and adapt to the concept and boundaries set are kids. Their behavior will conform to the rewards or consequences you issue for a given behavior. If a kid puts in a half hearted effort on a report at school and gets a "C" and mommy goes in and fights with the teacher and the grade gets changed to an A or B what do you think the kids learns? I need to try harder or that rules don't apply to them - I just need to whine and complain. Leave with his C and take away their phone or Xbox for a month and see how they do the next report.

Very early in that a reasonable person who understands actions and decisions have consequences could have seen this situation was going to go very bad from outer space.

It's not just football players.
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Re: Locker Room Random Thoughts

Postby Nat@PSU » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:55 am

I agree with your central premise that kids and students need boundaries and will perform to their level of expectations but to pin this on one political party or ideology is, in my opinion, inaccurate. As a teacher, I've dealt with the types of parents to whom you are referring and believe you me, they come from every socioeconomic class and cover broad swaths of voting demographics.

I would argue that this type of behavior is reflective of the type of pedestal these athletes have been placed on their entire lives, and to be frank, we're partly to blame. We are all here because of a football team at a school we love. We've each discussed the merits of our coach who is payed $4 Million per year, at a stadium that draws 100,000+ fans for each home game. A number of us follow the recruiting of these kids in high school and throughout their commitments and careers.

It's no more true now than 30 years ago: high profile athletes are afforded privileges others aren't and are often treated very differently than their less athletic peers. Many of these kids have been told how incredible they are, they've been highly recruited, and they've come to understand that what they want is typically what they get. I'd attribute this attitude far more to the elite athlete class than to kids in general.

The actions of these young men were, in my opinion, deplorable, and deserve firm consequences. But to attribute their actions to participation trophies and "liberal progressiveness", well, that's a specious argument in my opinion.
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