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The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby SouthernLion » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:20 am

Fine. Whatever you say.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby Blue&White » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:55 am

i agree with appoo. Women should be able to do all those things. Absolutely. And, if something happens, its' not their fault and they should not be blamed. I'm with that idea 100%.

I think the problem is that, regardless of who is to blame, things do happen. I should be able to leave my car in a parking lot with the windows down, the doors unlocked and the key in the ignition. It's my car and the fact that I made it accessible doesn't mean someone has the right to take it. But, I don't leave my car in that condition in a parking lot because I know that, if I do, there is a good chance the car will be gone when I come back. The fact that the person who took my car committed a crime and could face consequences, including possible jail time, doesn't change the fact that my car is gone.

appoo - of course women should be able to do those things. However, suggesting maybe they take steps to avoid those situations is not the same as blaiming the victims. The point Southern was making, and I agree with him, that regardless of who's fault it is, you should take steps to protect yourself and avoid these situations. We do that in every other walk of life. We lock our cars, we lock our houses, we stay away from certain neighborhoods, we don't leave our credit cards lying around, we protect our passwords, etc. It is not at all controversial to tell people to take steps to protect themselves in all other situations, so why is it a problem to tell women to use caution? Again, the fact that they shouldn't be assaulted regardless is a moot point if they are.

Consider the Winston case at F$U. Let's pretend he wasn't a football player and was just ordinary Joe Schmoe (let's also pretend he was white because a black male accused of rape by a white woman has its own dynamic and no point in getting into that here). So, she goes back to his place, they have sex, and she goes to the police and says she said "no" and he forced himself on her and, rather than sweep it under the rug, they actually investigate it. Ok now what? What do you think happens next? Is he prosecuted? Maybe he is. Is he convicted? I'd guess probably not. A drunk girl who willingly goes back to a guys room and then later claims she was raped is going to have a really tough time convincing a jury to put that guy in jail. Especially if they were both drinking. If she can show he slipped her something, then sure. But, if they both were drinking and she walked back to his place? Good luck with that.

That doesn't mean she wasn't raped. That doesn't mean she was to blame. That doesn't mean it should have happened, or it is ok. And, even if he is convicted, and he goes to jail - it doesn't change what happened to her.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby psu_dad » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:31 am

It is not at all controversial to tell people to take steps to protect themselves in all other situations, so why is it a problem to tell women to use caution?


It just is.

I remember a discussion I had with my youngest years ago when he was expressing frustration at a politician (forget who) who was using an emotional argument to win favor over using a rational/logical one. I told him to get used to this, that emotion was a dramatically more powerful force than logic. Absent the tiny minority of sociopaths, everyone has emotions .. but not everyone is logical.

Apropos of nothing, he has a great t-shirt on which there are 12 pictures of Dr Spock displaying a range of emotions (anger, happiness, etc.) Each photo is identical. :D
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby Blue&White » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:36 am

No, he has a shirt that shows 12 pictures of Mr. Spock. Dr. Spock was a guy who wrote parenting books in the 60s. You are now seriously dating yourself.

That aside, I've seen that shirt and it's pretty funny.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby psu_dad » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:41 am

He was the Science Officer of the USS Enterprise. I'm sure he had a PhD.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby appoo » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:23 pm

Blue&White wrote:i agree with appoo. Women should be able to do all those things. Absolutely. And, if something happens, its' not their fault and they should not be blamed. I'm with that idea 100%.

I think the problem is that, regardless of who is to blame, things do happen. I should be able to leave my car in a parking lot with the windows down, the doors unlocked and the key in the ignition. It's my car and the fact that I made it accessible doesn't mean someone has the right to take it. But, I don't leave my car in that condition in a parking lot because I know that, if I do, there is a good chance the car will be gone when I come back. The fact that the person who took my car committed a crime and could face consequences, including possible jail time, doesn't change the fact that my car is gone.

appoo - of course women should be able to do those things. However, suggesting maybe they take steps to avoid those situations is not the same as blaiming the victims. The point Southern was making, and I agree with him, that regardless of who's fault it is, you should take steps to protect yourself and avoid these situations. We do that in every other walk of life. We lock our cars, we lock our houses, we stay away from certain neighborhoods, we don't leave our credit cards lying around, we protect our passwords, etc. It is not at all controversial to tell people to take steps to protect themselves in all other situations, so why is it a problem to tell women to use caution? Again, the fact that they shouldn't be assaulted regardless is a moot point if they are.

Consider the Winston case at F$U. Let's pretend he wasn't a football player and was just ordinary Joe Schmoe (let's also pretend he was white because a black male accused of rape by a white woman has its own dynamic and no point in getting into that here). So, she goes back to his place, they have sex, and she goes to the police and says she said "no" and he forced himself on her and, rather than sweep it under the rug, they actually investigate it. Ok now what? What do you think happens next? Is he prosecuted? Maybe he is. Is he convicted? I'd guess probably not. A drunk girl who willingly goes back to a guys room and then later claims she was raped is going to have a really tough time convincing a jury to put that guy in jail. Especially if they were both drinking. If she can show he slipped her something, then sure. But, if they both were drinking and she walked back to his place? Good luck with that.

That doesn't mean she wasn't raped. That doesn't mean she was to blame. That doesn't mean it should have happened, or it is ok. And, even if he is convicted, and he goes to jail - it doesn't change what happened to her.


There is nothing wrong with telling girls and woman to protect themselves, and to be extra careful. That's just reality. Its not a fair world.

If you get robbed, no one defends the robber at a moral level. If someone breaks into your house, no one defends the home invader at a moral level.

When a bunch of a football players in Ohio got a 16 Y/O wasted and had sex with her, an entire town defended them on a moral level and blamed the girl for sneaking out of the house to drink, and hanging out with older boys.

I dont know why, but men who commit sexual assault while notbwearing masks and tying the girl up, get defended. There is a culture out there that says so long as she's wasted and partying, then it's OK to coerce sec because she was apparently asking for it by making poor choices of getting drunk.

When we stop defending those guys at a moral level, then these girls will have much less to fear. These guys are doing this because they have good odds of getting away with it.

So its different from saying this is like a robbery or a break in. And even further, a lot of these guys are in a position of trust for these girls. Statistically, it seems that the majority of these attacks are perpetrated by someone the girl already knows. What's the reasonable defense of that?

At a general level, girls are the overwhelming victim in all of this. But to a small extent so are young men. Your sons, in a decade, or going to goto school in a culture where girls are going to be brought up to be scared of all boys. To he a normal, nice, guy in that atmosphere is much tougher. Because you're automatically assumed to be someone who will rape the girl that you're talking to.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby Blue&White » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:31 pm

I generally agree with you. I'm not sure that men who rape without wearing masks all get defended, but some certainly do. Your football example is a good example of it too. But, I don't disagree with your basic point. I don't think anyone here disagreed with that point.

That said, there are people who are arguing you shouldn't have to tell girls to learn to defend themselves. It's probably a minority, but there is some.

I don't agree with you last point. I don't think my nieces are brought up to be scared of all boys. My nieces are being brought up, I believe, to be wary of situations, but not all people. And, people are generally not like that. I don't think women assume all men are a going to rape them. Perhaps some feel that way, but I doubt that's the norm.

Anyway, I think we agree here so no point in continuing. Feel free to write George Will, though, because he clearly has a different opinion.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby appoo » Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:40 pm

Well I think Mrs. USA got into some kind of hot water for saying girls needed to learn self defense as an answer to this sexual assault stuff. I don't really disagree with her. Unless we see some kind of sea change about the subject, that's the correct answer.

My point is that there needs to be a sea change. Will doesn't seem to believe that, and there seems to be many who believe that rather than a sea change they'd rather just tell girls to not put themselves in a position where they won't get assaulted, or train themselves in self defense, and declare mission accomplished.
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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby psu_dad » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:06 pm

While we're on the subject, I just discovered that Spock only attended the Starfleet Academy from 2249 to 2253. So he may not have a PhD, unless they had an accelerated program, which they probably did. I need to research this some more.

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Re: The "Rape Culture"/Sexual Assault in America

Postby SouthernLion » Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:56 pm

appoo wrote:My point is that there needs to be a sea change. Will doesn't seem to believe that, and there seems to be many who believe that rather than a sea change they'd rather just tell girls to not put themselves in a position where they won't get assaulted, or train themselves in self defense, and declare mission accomplished.


I AM able to advise my daughter to avoid comprising situations. Unfortunately, I've used up my alottment of sea changes for this life, which is zero.
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