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Another school shooting

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Re: Another school shooting

Postby psu_dad » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:20 am

I think you're confusing mass shootings with mass killings. The FBI defines a "mass killing" as 4 or more victims. The majority of mass killings are family-related. Only 1 in 6 such deaths are due to "public place massacres", like the recent incident. About 3/4 of mass killings involve a gun and about 3/4 of gun-related mass killings involve pistols.

The 945 number seems very high from what I read, unless you're talking about victims (and not shooting incidents).
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Blue&White » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:26 am

I didn't think so, but I'll double check it later today. I agree 945 seems high. I was shocked when I saw that.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Carl Spackler » Fri Oct 09, 2015 3:01 am

psu_dad wrote:I think you're confusing mass shootings with mass killings. The FBI defines a "mass killing" as 4 or more victims. The majority of mass killings are family-related. Only 1 in 6 such deaths are due to "public place massacres", like the recent incident. About 3/4 of mass killings involve a gun and about 3/4 of gun-related mass killings involve pistols.

The 945 number seems very high from what I read, unless you're talking about victims (and not shooting incidents).



As are gun deaths in the total which includes suicides and that facet makes up over 50% alone. Deaths where rifles, the current whipping boy in general, were used was less then 200 out of as memory serves over 20,000 deaths. Again, the majority of deaths were self inflicted, intentional suicide deaths.

I continue to hear assault rifles bandied about being severely restricted to solve the problem. I purchased an AR (Armalite Rifle, not Assault Rifle) -15 several months ago. Several reasons, 1. as an investment since it was a Colt, the name and the company with the govt. contract to produce for military use (before someone jumps the shark on that fact the govt. chose various manufacturers to produce previous armament e.g. the Springfield rifle, the M-40, etc. all wooden stocked "regular appearing rifles" that seem not to draw the ire of the opponents). 2. As a marksman tool and tool to dispatch skunks at night around our home since I can attach extra Picatinny Rails to allow attaching a tactical flashlight and laser for night vision and aiming. 3. To use as a marksman tool with the trajectory and ranging scope I've placed on it, pretty cool scope making accurate shots as far as 500 meters attainable with this firearm. 4. The 223 caliber has so light a recoil my wife can shoot it as well as me. No real "kick" to be concerned about and with some cushioning on the butt plate plus some internal dampening it will kick like a baby making marksmanship easier to attain. 5. For home protection with an extended magazine if the bad guys trying to invade our home, steal our goods and harm my wife or myself up to and including murder with the response time of local police at roughly 25 mins. Depending on police here is a joke in a now or never situation. They arrive in time to call the ambulance or coroner or both. If something ever happened to my wife under my watch and I had the power to stop it given the right equipment yet chose not to acquire this equipment I would never be able to forgive myself.

I grew up on a farm with mountain land due west where I hunted and wandered as a young lad. We all hunted to put meat on the table of various sorts. I grew up using firearms as tools just as we used hammers and saws to build things or repair things. I also learned to set and shoot dynamite to blow tree stumps out of the ground opening up former woodland and orchards to crop production.

This firearm is the first semi automatic I've ever owned and today, 2 full months from the day I brought it home with my wife who bought it, it hasn't been fired, only accessorized. I find accessorizing the unit fascinating. I realize there is no manner in which I can turn it into a fully automatic fire unit as it is a post ban of 1986 model and the upper and lower assemblies are not properly milled to allow the correct parts for automatic machine gun fire to be placed in a workable manner. While I'd greatly enjoy having an automatic firearm I do not have the financial ability to do so considering the numerous permits, etc. necessary to obtain one. Secondly the amount of ammo used up in a short time on the range is cost prohibitive too. Also, spraying auto fire isn't very accurate and I'd rather pull the trigger each time to fire a round giving me much more control and accuracy. A neighbor has a range set up out to 400 yards in length which I hope to put to use sighting in the firearm some day. The scope has the ability to store several distances and ballistic info for quick changes during hunting season, marksmanship practicing or just a few enjoyable late fall days where the crisp air takes me back to the days when I hunted every autumn.

I recognize I represent a small minority on this board and that is partly why I posted. It's not my goal to brag but to discuss and explain things from flyover country and the more rural areas that represent a great majority of the landmass that is the USA. We purchased a gun safe last year for my birthday to keep them in one place and under lock and key so no one else can access them. With a new grandson we expect a visit some day and won't in any manner create an attractive nuisance as they say in which a tragedy could occur. The skunk that got away tonight benefited from the time lapse of having to access the safe to grasp the firearm. Wish that were not so yet we will have to practice to shave seconds from the time to access the necessary firearm. Skunks are not sprinters and we will learn as the white grub population is significant this fall, a delicacy to a skunk. Before skunks destroy sections of our beautiful lawn we will control them. First the Yellow Jackets nesting in our garage, eves, etc. and then the skunks.

Green Acres is the Place to Be! Farm living is the life for me. Land spreading out so far and wide. Keep your cities just give us our countryside.

Restricting my use of these tools because a loon or nutcase or drunk abused them needs to focus just as much on the method of their madness as the tools used to carry out their madness. I do not say this frivolously, be it alcohol, legal or illegal drug use, mental illness or other vagaries that appear to cause these outbursts of insanity are the triggers to the crime. Stealing firearms or illegally obtaining them are problems that won't go away nor will be thwarted with more laws. Astounding as it sounds I read somewhere that there are over 10,000 gun laws in the USA. They did not stop a person who wanted to murder school children and teachers. What better place to do so, seemingly all schools are now "gun free zones" meaning no law abiding person may carry, have on their person or bring within their mode of transportation any weapon making it easy pickings or not unlike shooting fish in a barrel. I see the police approach the school but then surround it before attempting to enter the area where the danger lies. I grasp the concern of running into the building to find yourself face to face with a murderer potentially unprepared to defend yourself due to your rush to save the occupants. Yet in a five minute event the police are still en-route when the murders have ended often with the end of the criminal. Protection must me onsite or it is effectively useless in the vast majority of cases. At Columbine the police surrounded the school for at least an hour before entering only to find the murdered and the murders all dead long before their entrance making the police of no effect, sadly.

No sane person wants to see any of these incidents although they also took place before the 24/7 cable news marathons and they were not as publicized constantly by the talking heads of which many don't know one end of a firearm from the other. We are inundated with the alleged news that often changes several times before settling down to some basic facts. Aren't 10,000 laws directed at firearms, some due to their physical appearance, not the manner in which they operate which is the key factor in any firearm, enough to stop all crime? NO, criminals will always break the law. The laws, like locks, are for the honest among us, not the dishonest. I do believe the notoriety garnered by past mass murderers is a point of focus for present and future criminals. Like J.C.'s post link, they seek attention and friendship but receive neither making some of the fringe of these young people lose it while others, Columbine for example, hated other students and teachers and sought to harm them in the most vicious manner or execution I can imagine and again, religion or lack thereof had a place in their violence against several of the murdered students identifying as Christians. You can make gun laws, and some of the background checks would be a good place to focus yet even in that manner a nut case will purchase and lie about their mental state. I've filled out the forms and did so honestly but I can see when it asks you if you this or that, a criminal will just lie and if record keeping is not up to speed they may get away with it. No law will stop someone who has designs on gaining fame through a heinous act, never has, never will. There is a far better chance of a teacher influencing them in a class in elementary school of turning their attitudes through some encouragement and kind words than all the gun laws in the world.

Time for bed guys. See you later today. ;)
Last edited by Carl Spackler on Sat Oct 10, 2015 1:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Carl Spackler » Fri Oct 09, 2015 11:32 pm

JC in Va wrote:Couple of thoughts here and I will likely surprise many who know my fiscally conservative ways:

1) The right to bear arms in the 1700's was back when the playing field was level between government, militia, and citizens. Anyone that thinks the right to bear arms is remotely tied to this today when we live in a world with tanks and laser guided missles from unmanned aircraft isn't really thinking about this clearly.

2) Implementation of anything on gun control is where this gets tricky.

3) There is pretty strong evidence that lack of social acclimation is tied to gun violence - here is a story my wife shared with me that a teacher is doing and frankly we should all be doing something similar

http://momastery.com/blog/2014/01/30/share-schools/


The point as I see it is that this teacher got it and did so long ago. The slightest attention and caring for a child that doesn't receive it at home or at school can make a world of difference. A kind word and some encouragement go a long way. Of course it won't totally redirect the child in most cases but the effort and the recognition of a single child or several children may be the spark that ignites their inner creative intellect. Most children who are not outgoing do not receive recognition or attention, they just go along through 12 years of school as the middle of every class, project, etc. When a teacher who actually cares (and we have one on this very message board) to look deeper it can make a major difference. I can see an excel spreadsheet logging the weekly votes providing an easy way to assemble a grid of popularity and loneliness. The popular children have their own reward while the lonely ones generally do not. Good for her. I hope this teacher, at the end of the year explains what she was doing with the data collected as the children likely won't have a clue and it would be a great object lesson for the entire class. Whether it I.D's a psychopath no one knows but it may be a step in preventing one from developing into a raging murderer.

Thanks for posting J.C. Very interesting. I've actually thought that the general idea of identifying children who are not in the mainstream of popularity and loners could be a way to assist in helping them but never considered her unique way of personally self identifying them weekly as a dynamic year long metering device producing actionable data.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Blue&White » Sat Oct 10, 2015 10:24 am

I went back to try to find the article where I read the 945 number but can't find it. I suspect dad's theory as to what that number was is correct, and it was mass killings. The number of mass shootings seems to be closer to 300, which is still pretty horrific. And, the number of dead and wounded is over 1,000 for this year already.

I did, however, find this: Mass Shooting Tracker

You can export the file to excel, which makes it easier to look at. It provides links to news articles about each shooting. That's about as objective a resource as I think you'll find on the topic. No opinions, no commentary, just data. It's not up to date, though, as there have been some shootings in the last few days. Because the hits just keep on coming.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby psu_dad » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:01 am

I looked at the details of the first Boston shooting I noticed on that list. Six people shot after a fight at a party in a bad neighborhood. Police believe it was "gang-related". I'm sure these types of incidents dwarf the number of incidents involving mentally disturbed shooters, despite the latter garnering all the publicity. And there isn't any gun-law that could have prevented what happened in that Boston incident. The people involved don't give a rat's ass about gun laws and didn't acquire their guns legally.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Carl Spackler » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:36 am

Dad is correct relating to gang/drug murders dwarfing any mass school shootings. I remember reading of school killings back in the 1800's but they did not receive 24/7 recognition on cable news or the internet. Killings of three or more happen in Chicago literally daily through gang/drug wars but we don't hear about them, cost of doing business or head in sand mentality. When will the President go to his home town and console the parents of the next three year old murdered by stray gun fire from idiot gang members who can't shoot accurately or will we have midnight at the range where we train shooting skills to gangs to avoid murdering innocent bystanders. The silence about Chicago is deafening :o

What follows is a statement from a survivor of the murders. Cold blooded, calculated, callous disregard for anything but religion stand out. It doesn't say he asked every victim but does say he asked at least two if they were religious. I'm sure more will come out over time as now is the time for them to grieve the lost. I can't imagine receiving a phone call telling me my child was murdered by a psychopath while at school or frankly anywhere. It is unimaginable yet the gun free zone did NOTHING to protect these victims and does nothing to protect anyone who obeys the law.

Here is one man's account from the AP


SEATTLE (AP) — The 18-year-old college student singled out by the shooter as the "lucky one" to survive and deliver a package to law enforcement has told his story for the first time about the massacre in Roseburg, Oregon.

In a written statement that was the most detailed account thus far of the Oct. 1 shooting, Mathew Downing said Friday that when Christopher Harper-Mercer entered the Umpqua Community College classroom, Downing's ears were ringing from shots already fired, and he thought what was happening "couldn't be real."

He said the first thing the shooter did was put his backpack on the front desk and pull out an envelope, saying: "There is a flash drive in this and whoever survives this should give it to the police."

Downing's account of what came next coincides with relatives of survivors who previously reported that Harper-Mercer looked at Downing and said, "Hey kid with the glasses, you are the lucky one. I will not shoot you if you give this to the cops."

Downing said he stood up then, and the shooter pointed a gun at him. "This is the moment I thought I was going to die," Downing said.

Instead, the shooter paused for a moment, Downing said, and handed him the envelope. Next, the shooter told Downing to sit in the very back seat and face him.

Downing did so and said at that point Harper-Mercer fired into the center of the room and began asking students one by one if they were religious. The shooter fired at one student who said he was Christian and another who said she was Catholic.

The shooter reloaded two handguns with ammunition from his backpack during the killings, Downing said. Harper-Mercer was "firing on people who were just lying there," Downing said.

Downing also said the shooter seemed to lose interest when a woman told him she couldn't move her legs to stand up because of the pain.

He turned to another woman, telling her to stand, and she picked up a desk to defend herself, Downing said. Harper-Mercer fired at her anyway, hitting her in the leg.

When the shooter noticed police, he leaned out a window and fired at them. Downing also wrote that after Harper-Mercer was hit by police gunfire, he lay down on the floor and shot himself in the head.

Harper-Mercer killed nine people and wounded nine others.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Blue&White » Sat Oct 10, 2015 12:27 pm

psu_dad wrote:I looked at the details of the first Boston shooting I noticed on that list. Six people shot after a fight at a party in a bad neighborhood. Police believe it was "gang-related". I'm sure these types of incidents dwarf the number of incidents involving mentally disturbed shooters, despite the latter garnering all the publicity. And there isn't any gun-law that could have prevented what happened in that Boston incident. The people involved don't give a rat's ass about gun laws and didn't acquire their guns legally.


It was a list of shootings, not shootings that met some other criteria. And, I think the mentally ill thing is a giant red herring. As for the Boston incident and what would have prevented it - who knows. I'm well versed in the "but criminals will still get guns" argument, but that generally doesn't seem to be true in the rest of the western world. Illegal guns are generally guns that were once legal and were stolen. So, the idea that the same number of illegal guns is always going to be available doesn't really make sense to me. Not even a little bit.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Carl Spackler » Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:22 pm

Why? Theft is a growing business, theft of a valuable commodity is more cash rich. Criminals/gangs tend to get/have stolen guns. Nut cases tend to buy them legally by either lying on the back ground check form or being so nuts they tell the truth s they think it. If you want to buy a gun to commit a crime will you note that on the form, unlikely.

In many places in the rest of the world guns are not available in general as they are confiscated and made illegal to own. That is a reason the 2nd amendment was placed immediately after the 1st in the USA. Confiscation of the guns legally owned would be quite an interesting proposition and the nut cases would have to resort to bombs, knives, swords, cars, trucks, bows, crossbows, semiautomatic crossbows capable of being converted into fully automatic crossbows, dihydro-monoxide, carbon, strangulation with very large deep plunging underwire brassieres say 40 DD and up - heavy armor, or other kitchen items not confiscated by big brother. Obviously the list is incomplete as starvation was not listed nor was piano wire asphyxiation, misuse of dry cleaner bags and the like.

I don't think we will resolve this issue here tonight or tomorrow so I'll check out. Enjoy the remainder of the weekend. Beautiful day here, 60 degrees, blue sky, PSU win, Maryland loss with the loss of MR. NO Handshake sportsmanship soon to follow, what a shame....... really anyone losing a job is a shame but a golden parachute may be in store or the payment of the remaining years of his contract in a lump sum, not too shabby. In his time away from the game he can study courtesy, sportsmanship and the traditions of college football then send the book up north to Piscataway NJ where another head coach has trouble with the same issues minus shaking hands.
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Re: Another school shooting

Postby Carl Spackler » Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:50 pm

An answer at least partially to mass murder done you young men at schools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwLjFm6GMBM..

Interesting take on the situation and I agree. A documentary of African elephants who's fathers were murdered for their ivory was played several years ago. These young elephants began to act out and without any discipline by their fathers in the fatherless society they grew up in they continued to act out outrageously as they had no control, discipline, moral guidance, etc. They raised themselves as a bachelor group, a gang. The corrolation is striking, young men raised without fathers although in elephants the fathers had to be murdered to separate them from their families while in our society fatherless families are at times defended while the results are deflected onto anything else. Losing your father as a child is tragic, work accidents, cancer, auto accident, etc. are all ways it occurs but we all know the way it occurs in abundance, abandonment and that is not only tragic it is immoral. Losing a govt. benefit is another way our govt. reinforces the fatherless society we are developing, "I won't ever marry because I'll lose my benefits" is heard often by my wife in the medical field, sad that our govt. reinforces and rewards fatherless families.
Actually there ought to be a benefit for keeping families intact, not divided.
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