Politics

Nat@PSU
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Nat@PSU » Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:46 am

sameoldlama wrote:Well I guess he's just trying to fit in with the mainstream politicians like the former POTUSes and Chucky, Hillary, Biden, Boxer, Feinstein - all wall opponents of whom there is ample recent video of them calling for increased border security including physical barriers , increased patrols and a crackdown on illegal immigration. I mean it's not like they enacted legislation and voted for a Secure Fence at our southern border.

How best to solve our illegal immigration is a worthy debate - the Democrats are basically calling for open borders - and that would as disasterous here as it has been for Europe.



Do these two statements seem inconsistent to you? The democrats are not calling for open borders. They are on the record in favor of border security measures that work, including improving ports of entry. Does a physical barrier make sense in some places? Absolutely. But that's not why this is happening. You're deluding yourself if you think Donald Trump is doing anything other than stomping his feet over an unrealistic, frivolous, and widely inefficient and ineffective plan that he touted during his campaign and said Mexico would pay for.

For the record, I agree with you completely on aiming legislation and enforcement at people who profit from consistently hiring illegal workers. That said, legislation like that may put the President and his privately held companies in some pretty hot water as he has shown a history of hiring illegally. In making this point I think you touched on a broader issue: illegal immigration is a broad a nuanced issue that should be approached from a variety of angles and should have meaningful, realistic, and data based goals. Trumps proposed wall does none of those things. Furthermore, he is as capable of understanding and interpreting nuance as I am at objectively measuring Penn State's football chances.

Framing this fight, from Trumps end, as a earnest process to pursue a campaign promise and help the America people is, in my opinion, laughable.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Blue&White
Posts: 3501
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Fri Jan 11, 2019 8:57 am

It's more than laughable. It's delusional. And, from all I read, the more intelligent people on the anti-immigration debate are really, really pissed about this. They are concerned that he's going to trade something - like DACA - in return for token funding for something they don't think will make a damn bit of difference on the issues around immigration - that wall. And, it is starting to look like that is exactly what is going to happen.

Trump is a fool. He went on TV and said, in front of the world, that he would be proud to own the shutdown. And, he clearly had no idea what that really meant. And, now he does. I saw this morning that Miami National Airport is going to be experience a partial shutdown. The government is losing millions in revenue from national park entry fees. The FDA is now scaling back on food safety inspection. Hopefully we don't have another "ecoli in romain lettuce" outbreak.

How anyone can defend this stupidity is really beyond me.
Baseball season!!!!

sameoldlama
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:43 am

Re: Politics

Postby sameoldlama » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:09 am

Perhaps I am not articulating properly but what I am saying is the same Ds opposing DT's crackdown on illegal immigration were spouting the same rhetoric 10 years ago - they have shifted their positions with the political winds and due their pathological opposition to everything DT does. There have been Ds that have flat out called for open borders. In sanctuary cities and in Cali illegals have nearly all the rights and benefits of legal citizens and are being protected from federal enforcement - that disincentivizes legal immigration and is in effect creating an open border.

I think we all know how we got here - illegal immigration has been occurring for decades - and politicians have been doing there standard phony blustering about doing something about it - while not really doing anything about it until it has become a significant societal issue. And we all know why - 25 years ago it was cheap labor and illegals weren't accessing social benefits so net it was an economic benefit to them. When more US workers were displaced, their wages depressed and the social benefit cost started tabbing up people started taking notice.

And as I said at this point I think DT needs to pivot and get concessions that even unreasonable people would difficulty arguing. Clearly there are arguments against a physical barrier along our entire border in terms of its effectiveness and cost (both immediate and long term). I can't see how anyone can defend not having greater accountability for people who employ illegals - make the consequence for doing so greater than the benefit.
Call for an end to sanctuary cities - failing to comply with the law doesn't work for you and me and it shouldn't work for elected officials sworn to uphold the law and protect citizens.
Make a law if enter illegally you forfeit the ability to enter legally - again make the consequence of undesirable behavior greater than it's reward.

And yes DT got completely exposed on his idiotic, egotistical boast that Mexico would pay for the wall. And even as conceited as he is even he probably knew that was never going to happen and it was a lie.

Just like Obama knew the ACA wasn't going to bring a windfall of cost savings for everyone, you wouldn't keep your doctor and Benghazi wasn't all over a youtube video. Did you hold equal contempt for him that you do DT when he knowingly lied? DT is a pathological liar - he couldn't stop himself if he tried - his ego wouldn't allow it. Obama, Hillary, Bush, Cheney are calculated liars.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall

Nat@PSU
Posts: 331
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:56 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Nat@PSU » Fri Jan 11, 2019 2:10 pm

sameoldlama wrote:And yes DT got completely exposed on his idiotic, egotistical boast that Mexico would pay for the wall. And even as conceited as he is even he probably knew that was never going to happen and it was a lie.


I disagree, he is pathological. I think he genuinely believes the things he is saying, which makes his outrage over the "unfairness" of the media's coverage of him make sense.

I don't think that the goal from people on either side is "open borders". Is there a small subset on the left that believe that? I'm sure.

I'm for securing our borders in a humane, fiscally responsible (I'm aware this is a pipe dream) way that is tied to immigration reform, penalties for companies that incentivize and exploit migrant workers, as well as looking at how applications of our foreign policy have helped created conditions throughout the world that serves to spur on mass migrations from unstable countries. As I've said, it is a large and nuanced problem. Pretending that how we engage in the world has nothing to do with large scale migration, then abdicating our responsibilities is unacceptable to me.

And pretending that the ONLY solution to illegal immigration is an archaic wall because you promised throngs of drooling morons that you'd build one at Mexico's expense? And to do all that while forcing a government shutdown that is having a serious impact on thousands of American's lives (not to mention, removing the funding for the CBP and hampering their effectiveness now)? That's a non-starter.
- Nat

Let's Go State!!

Crowbar
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Crowbar » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:31 pm

Here's my thing. If the President and Congress want to fight over the wall, fine. Have at it.

My issue is DJT put 800,000 out of work over this bullshit, of which 799,995 (or more) have absolutely no control or say over the stupid wall. These poor people are suffering tremendously because of it. It's easy for DJT, a billionaire who was born into a wealthy family, to say the employees will have to make adjustments, but what the hell does he know about living paycheck to paycheck?
National Champions 1911, 1912, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1994

Crowbar
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2017 12:54 pm

Re: Politics

Postby Crowbar » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:47 pm

Glad to see the Democrats are taking the shutdown seriously.

Bastards. Everyone of them, on both sides. Time to stop paying these idiots until the shutdown is over. Then we'll see how quickly they resolve this.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... e-shutdown
National Champions 1911, 1912, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1986, 1994

Blue&White
Posts: 3501
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Sun Jan 13, 2019 6:17 pm

I don't blame the Democrats for this particular fiasco, but that's amazingly tone deaf. What a bunch of schmucks.
Baseball season!!!!

sameoldlama
Posts: 840
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2017 7:43 am

Re: Politics

Postby sameoldlama » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:53 am

I've noticed the federal govt is still collecting taxes from me - I don't see why they can't have a provision that they will operate "as is" during a budget stalemate and just freeze any new capital spending, new hires, non-essential travel. They should continue to employ pay active employees.
Wendall : That's very linear Sheriff
Ed Tom : Age will flatten a man Wendall

PSUgrower
Posts: 935
Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:52 am

Re: Politics

Postby PSUgrower » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:14 am

Crowbar wrote:Glad to see the Democrats are taking the shutdown seriously.

Bastards. Everyone of them, on both sides. Time to stop paying these idiots until the shutdown is over. Then we'll see how quickly they resolve this.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... e-shutdown

Umm, this was planned months in advance. I am lost as to why we think people should just sit there an twiddle their thumbs when this president is playing Czar with this country. The president is the only asshat holding this country hostage. He won't sign a bill without a wall. If I were the democrats I would be pushing budget bill after budget bill to make the Republicans look like crap. I am lucky because the budget does not influence my life at all for the most part. Can I say one more time how much I LOATH this president. He only cares about himself and no one else!!

Blue&White
Posts: 3501
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 am

Re: Politics

Postby Blue&White » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:51 am

The Democrats proposed pretty much that and many Republicans were willing to sign on to that. Trump said "screw that" and said he would not approve anything that opens up any portion of the government until he gets his wall. And then the White House ordered furloughed IRS workers to come back and work without pay checks so people can get their tax refunds. Seriously, those things happened almost simultaenously.

It is a matter of time before all these people say "f*ck this" and, legal or otherwise, walk off the job and shut down major portions of the economy. The airlines are already raising the alarm about potential air travel shut downs. They claim this is costing them billions (although I'm a bit dubious of that given there's only been a handful of cancellations reported). But, at somet point - and I predict it's the next time pay checks are due and these people are still not paid - I think you're going to see a bigger reaction from all these people.

It's illegal for government workers to go on strike. That goes back to a 1940s post WWII law where the intent was that workers in key positions should not be able to basically hold the government hostage by withholding critical services. But, that law never contemplated a situation where the government orders them to keep working without getting paid. There are a number of lawsuits going through the courts over this. So far, the courts have refused to issue any kind of emergency injunctions to force the government to pay salaries. But, at some point either the courts are going to rule that these people can't be required to work without being paid or, regardless of what the courts say, all these workers are just going to say "screw this" and leave on their own.

This is an absolute disaster. And, Trump owns it. How can he not see that?
Baseball season!!!!